Is my vibrant sex life…vanilla?
Tracy Clark-Flory: I recently turned 40 and I can honestly say, I'm having the best sex of my life.
Myisha Battle: Oh, we love to hear that.
Tracy: And, you know, like so much so it's like, in such contrast to the sex I was having in my 20s, which I write about so much of my book, that I feel like I need a different term for sex.
Myisha: Woah
Tracy: Like I think generally, we need more words for sex.
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Myisha: Welcome back to KCRW's How's Your Sex Life? Your sex and dating survival guide. I'm your host Myisha Battle and before we start, I want to give a shout out to everyone who's been writing in, it's been so great to get your questions. We got some great questions for our special episode on friendship with our guest Ann Friedman. So check that out if you haven't already. This is also a good time to remind you, if you need advice about sex, dating or relationships, just drop us a line at sex life at KCRW dot org. Today, we're going to hear your questions about sexual satisfaction and desire. And I'm here with Tracy Clark-Flory. Hey, Tracy.
Tracy: Hey!
Myisha: Thank you so much for being here. You've written professionally about sex and dating, and your memoir "Want Me" is all about exploring desire. You also share feminist musings about everything from politics to pop culture in your weekly substack. Sometimes you even dole out advice there, which I have loved reading. So before we get to the advice giving, I have a question for you. How's your sex life?
Tracy: I recently turned 40 and I can honestly say, I'm having the best sex of my life.
Myisha: Oh, we love to hear that.
Tracy: And, you know, like so much so it's like, in such contrast to the sex I was having in my 20s, which I write about so much of my book, that I feel like I need a different term for sex.
Myisha: Woah
Tracy: Like I think generally, we need more words for sex, because it can be so many different things. But I will say that at the same time that I'm having the best sex in my life, I'm also a mother. I've been married for 10 years. And you know, domesticity and parenthood are kind of enemies to sex in many ways, I would say. And I think my sex life exists within this tension of like, best sex of my life and, there's never been more standing in the way of having sex.
Myisha: So frequency isn't the thing making it great is what I'm hearing.
Tracy: No, it's like on a technical level, it's, the experience itself is so amazing and beyond anything from ever before. But like life itself is so like overwhelming, the overwhelm of domesticity and parenthood. It's, you know, there's just a lot that gets in the way of it.
Myisha: Maybe that's why it can be so good.
Tracy: Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. I think that adds something to it. Certainly in the contrast.
Myisha: Yeah, we get to do this.
Tracy: Yeah,
Myisha: Now is the time.
Tracy: Yeah, because there's so much about, you know, parenting that's like, very, like tight and constrained and controlled. And so then the release, like opposite that, like, it's just a world of contrasts, you know?
Myisha: I love where you're at right now and I want it to continue for as long as humanly possible. So yes, let's get into our first question. And just a reminder, our questions are voiced by actors to keep everyone anonymous.
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Question 1: I've been with my partner for over a year now, and we have an amazing and fulfilling sex life. We spend nearly every day together. And of those days, we have sex anywhere from two to three times a day. We are completely free of any judgment with one another and very adventurous in the bedroom. When I asked him what he thought of our sex life, he said it was vanilla, what the fuck? We do things that you would only see in a porno, things I would never admit to my closest girlfriend. I believe the reason he thinks it's vanilla is because in the very beginning of our relationship, he mentioned his fantasy was to have a threesome with me and another woman. I immediately shut it down. But I know he still has this fantasy. Should I be concerned that if his fantasy is never fulfilled, he may cheat? He is a very sexual person, so I worry that our "vanilla sex" as he calls it, may not be enough.
Myisha: I have my thoughts. But I would love to hear your take.
Tracy: There's so much going on in there.
Myisha: There's a lot,
Tracy: Like there's so much to unpack. I mean, one of the first things that rises to the top for me is, like the way that the word vanilla can be used as this sort of, you know, insult, and it's so nonspecific. And so, you know, the first thing would be, there needs to be so much like communication and specificity here to be able to get anywhere. Like, because there's no universal definition of vanilla, right? And so, the first step is really being able to have an open, honest conversation about what things are you wanting? What things are you lacking? What things are you curious about? So opening up that line of conversation, I don't know. What do you think?
Myisha: So I think you're absolutely right. A conversation is needed here. Like they said, "what the fuck" in here. And I would also say, maybe not what the fuck to the partner, but clarifying questions. When you say vanilla, what do you mean by vanilla? When I think of vanilla, that's not our sex life. So somehow, we really have a discrepancy in like, how we view what's happening. And that may reveal what this person's fear is, that there's not a threesome happening every Saturday, that's worth having a conversation about as well. Because I think expectation setting is the next thing. Like, first of all, vanilla is a great flavor, you know. So, let's, let's stop calling things vanilla as this, yeah, like you said insult. And really talk about, like, if you're using it to try, as like a proxy, to explain to your partner that something is missing from the relationship, then like, just say that, you know? Just say, yeah, our sex life is great, like, give credit where credit is due. And also, I have these other desires, we've talked about them earlier in the relationship, I am feeling really frustrated that we haven't, you know, explored that. And then that's an opportunity for you to say, you know, that's a boundary of mine and we talked about that, and it hasn't changed for me. Or maybe something has changed. I also have thoughts about like, how you can, like, have a threesome without having a threesome.
Tracy: I definitely wanna hear that. I mean, the one other thing I would say is like, I wonder if for your partner, you know, you know, using this term vanilla, you know, in this way that feels kind of insulting, like it's passing judgment, if that might actually reflect an insecurity on their part. That about whatever their desires are, that you know, that they're, that you might not be okay with them, that they're abnormal or unusual, you know. And so, you know, in that way that often happens in these kinds of exchanges. You know, you're being insulted but perhaps what's going on behind the scenes is that there's a concern about rejection of like, how you might react, because clearly your partner's not being specific when they're talking about, like, what they do want. And so there might be some shame involved. And so yeah, there needs to be a little coaxing out of, what, you know, actual specific words and sentences, about what they want.
Myisha: Yeah, absolutely. So, when couples come to me and there is this tension in the relationship, because one party wants a threesome, and the other party is reluctant, needs more information, needs more time, I often encourage them to start playing around with the idea of a threesome. So that can take the form of dirty talk, it could mean you know, a little bit of roleplay, especially if like, you both go out and you like, kind of spot someone that you find attractive, both of you, together. And when you go home, you talk about that attraction, and you talk about what you might want to do with that person, and how you want the other person to be involved, etc. So, there's a lot of ways that you can do this, with your imagination before you do it in person. And honestly, like, this isn't true for everybody but a lot of people have commented that like the experience of threesomes is like, it doesn't reach the level of expectation that a lot of people have in their minds anyway. So really playing with that desire to have a third, you know, like, that's, that's an interesting dynamic that many people fantasize about, in very different ways. So it could be cool even to have like a non sexual conversation about like, when you say threesome, what do you envision? Like, what do you want? Because like, if you're just getting the guidance of like, I just want to see you with another woman or whatever. What does that mean? You know, are you on the sidelines masturbating? Are you like, touching us? Are you like, expecting us to just, you know, put on this show for you? Or do you want to have sex with this other woman while I watch, cause I don't know how I feel about that, or like, that's not erotically charged for me. Right like, again, getting into the specificity of like what this person has in their mind versus what could potentially be a turn on for you. So I have some clients who like the threesome exists between like a hetero couple, and another guy. And so if the fantasy is like double penetration. Well, there's toys for that. You know, and like the fantasy or the explicit like dirty talk that can be happening charges that you know toy, that toy is the third, you know and is the appendage of your third lover who is just fucking the shit out of your partner and you're enjoying that. So, again, I think there are ways like I said to have threesomes without having threesomes and in fact, it might even be more fun and sustainable because oh my gosh. The other thing about threesomes, the logistics, you know, like if you really, if you really want to be like, okay, babe, real talk, like, let's do this threesome. The steps right that have to be taken from that point. It's not like you can just pull in a stranger.
Tracy: You can't just snap your fingers,
Myisha: You can't snap your fingers, you can't walk out, you know your door, and then like just rope somebody into that. There's planning, there's execution, there's a vetting, there's sharing of STI, you know, information. There's a lot of stuff that is not sexy. And sometimes people just need to like, kind of get grounded in that as well. There's a lot that goes into it.
Tracy: Right. But like first step, I love this idea of like, we're talking about it with specifics and the idea that like the conversation itself can have this searching quality so that the question asker is actually, in some ways, like looking for, is there something here that excites me and interests me about what my partner is wanting about this scenario. Whether it's threesomes or anything else. And also just the fact that the conversation, so often, I think when someone's expressing this kind of, you know, vague, dissatisfaction, there's a part of them that feels unseen in the relationship and in the sexual partnership. And that is afraid of rejection. And so like the conversation itself can be erotic in just it's like the ability to sort of say, like, all of you is welcome here. And to like, kind of invite in and open up that space. So whatever the specifics are, that can be an amazing experience.
Myisha: Yeah, whatever they're thinking there's, there's a porn for that, you can find it. Watch it, enjoy it. Baby steps, you know.
Tracy: Yes. Yes.
Myisha: There are ways to explore this without, like, setting up a profile on field, yet. Our next question is from someone who's split between settling down and staying single. Let's take a listen.
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Question 2: Hi Myisha, I'm a 29-year-old cishet guy living in Southern California. And lately, I've been torn between different realms of my sex life. I enjoy being single and not putting effort into dating, but I also miss the excitement of meeting new people and possibly starting a relationship. But there are times when I just want a No Strings Attached fling. I noticed that when I start to laser in on one of my options, I poke holes in it, and second guess myself, and I'm back to feeling indecisive on what I'm seeking in my sex life. Do you have any suggestions on how I can be less divided with my desire?
Myisha: Okay, so I think for this one, I want to, like sort of synthesize what I'm hearing. I'm hearing somebody who is maybe relationship averse. Like, their primary goal with dating or their or their primary mode of being, is to have no strings attached, like to not have this focus be on his, you know, future long term partner. And he gets a lot of joy out of like, the idea of thinking about no strings attached, he, you know, when he opens himself up to dating, he is kind of like, keep it casual until something manifests. And that's actually like a dating strategy that I think is helpful. Where I think this person is really finding tension and confusion is when they actually do find someone with whom they want to have a relationship. So what do you think about that?
Tracy: Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'm hearing is I'm not hearing that this person has met a specific person who has really spoken to them in that way. And it's hard to tell, is that because they haven't met the right person yet, or is it because there's something standing in the way of that kind of, you know, quote, unquote, settling down?
Myisha: Well, they do say, he says that he pokes holes in the people that he finds,
Tracy: Right,
Myisha: Potentially, could be long term.
Tracy: Right. It's so hard, it's so hard to know, you know? I'm not, certainly it's not coming across that you know, he has fallen head over heels for someone and you know. But is that the poking of holes that doesn't allow him to arrive there? You know, but what's clear is that there's a dissatisfaction with the way that things are going, right. So it's not as though, you know, business, as usual, is working for him. There's some part of him that desires have changed, there's some experience of tension here where it's clearly, because of course, he could just continue doing no strings attached forevermore, you know. But there's something about it that's not sitting right for him and I think it's great that he's listening to that, you know, and that he has this self awareness to say, like, I do poke holes, when I, you know, meet someone who might have potential as a long, longer term partner. So of course, the question is why, you know, what is the fear? What do you associate with settling down? What assumptions are you making about what it means to settle down? Are you assuming monogamy, you know, long term monogamy? Are you, you know, are you making assumptions that you don't necessarily have to make about what it would look like to have a committed partnership? Because committed partnerships can take so many different forms. And so, perhaps that's where you're stuck is in this sort of dichotomy. This all or nothing, one or the other.
Myisha: Yes, lots of head nods as you are speaking, because I think your question of why does this person poke holes or fall fine? Or, in my book, this is supposed to be fun. It's like, you know, I talk about bigger, better deal, you know, you're always kind of thinking about, well, this is nice, but maybe I could do better. Right? And that why question is a great question to take to a therapist. I've had to do that, after breakups, where I thought I'd made different choices for myself, but I found myself right back in the same patterns. And I just couldn't see why I was doing what I was doing. And a lot of that did come from assumptions about relationships, or things that were patterns ingrained in me, you know, probably before I was like, even verbal, you know, about relationship structures and expectations and who I was supposed to be, versus who I wanted to be in relationships. And that deep work, it helped me gain the clarity to have, you know, a relationship that I could see fully what it was when it was handed to me. And I could appreciate it for everything, including its flaws, and also make an intentional decision to say like, this is the best choice for me, right now. So I think this person needs some support in this process, for sure.
Tracy: Yeah, yeah. Cause it sounds like they are, you know, remain a bit of a mystery to themselves, right. And so sometimes you need a little help to unravel the mystery of oneself.
Myisha: God, I love therapy for that.
Tracy: It's so good. We should all be in therapy.
Myisha: We should all be in therapy. I was talking to a friend last night and she was like, some of the shit my therapist says is like, so simple, that if I were to come home and tell my husband like, oh, my God, my therapist said this today, he'd be like, yeah.
Tracy: Right, you just paid how much money for that?
Myisha: But it's like how they say it. It's when they say it.
Tracy: The context of it all, the relationship that you're building with this person, you know.
Myisha:Yeah, the nuggets, the nuggets are so important. So, I definitely encourage you to find a therapist in your area. Psychology Today, their website is amazing for finding therapists who will take your insurance and you definitely want to search for somebody who, you know, has a focus on dating and relationships. I think that could be really, really helpful for you.
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Myisha: We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we have one more question about exploring new desires. Don't go anywhere.
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Myisha: And we're back. Our last question is from one of your readers and is about allowing for the possibility of new sexual desires.
Question 3: I’m a 35 year old female in a long term relationship/marriage with a man. I recently read your book and saw so much of my own challenges around sex and sexuality in your experience, except where you ended up embodying the porn star to receive validation, I did the opposite—became super passive, perhaps a sex doll to your porn star. Fast forward to years of marriage and two kids, a reckoning of not seeking external validation, especially through sex. The issue is I have no interest in partnered sex anymore. Any advice on exploring my sexual identity and desires (for basically the first time) without triggering old patterns?
Myisha: Hmm, wow, this is a really complex question too. So this person had the experience of numbing their sexual expression, not really being an agent of their own sexual desire, with kind of being like a recipient of their partner's desires, which I hear a lot in my practice. Any first thoughts about this?
Tracy: Yeah well, it sounds like this person has, you know, spent most of their life getting a lot of satisfaction from being desired. And I would say, there is legitimate satisfaction to be had there, you know, there's pleasure in being desired. But obviously, it can be taken to such an extreme, where you are numbing out and you're not experiencing your own pleasure, you're not experiencing your own desire, you don't have that sense of, you know, agency. And that is very much, you know, my story that I write about in my book. Is like, you know, having sex for so much of my 20s with that focus on my partners, this want to be wanted, faking orgasms, not having a lot of pleasure, but having the satisfaction of being desired. And so for this person, they're at this point in their life, where they're needing to redefine sex, and they're trying to, you know, push away, the sort of, you know, wanting to be wanted that, taking satisfaction from being desired, for very good reason, because, you know, that was a very negative experience for so long in their life. But it also sounds to me, like, you know, now that they've taken that out of the equation, pretty much fully, sex isn't as exciting or pleasurable. And so I think there can be this thing of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, where, you know, you exclude it to such an extreme that you, you do take away some of the pleasure that you were getting from sex, right. And so there is this sort of balancing act of being able to allow yourself to experience the pleasure of being desired, while also exploring, you know, your own desires. And so there's this, it's this moment of, you know, exploration and redefinition. But I would also say like, I'm curious where this question asker's partner is in all of this, and like, how present he is? And like, does he see it as an issue? Is it something that he wants to actively participate in? You know, there can be some communication around this. And, you know, I would hope that he would want to explore this with you.
Myisha: Yeah, something, my mind went to a place, which is going to maybe feel like a tangent, but I'll bring it back. My mind went to this place of clients, and folks that I know, who have had past histories of sexual trauma, right, where they had no agency, they did not consent, and the experience was largely dissociative, which is an extreme of what this person, I think, is describing. The use of the term sex doll in particular, that to me, really solidified for me how they feel, as a sexual person, you know, like, just laying there, just receiving, and probably somewhere else, mentally. Folks that, I've worked with, or I'm in community with, have often spoken about how BDSM helped them reclaim sex, and their agency in it, because there are clear roles. So even if they are choosing to be submissive, they are choosing that. There is agency in that. And those situations can be erotically, very charged, because of the trauma, because of the past experiences. And because you're doing it in a way that is different. And you are claiming this. So that's one thing that I kind of wanted to throw out there, which is like, could you embody the sex doll in a way where you are consciously choosing that, and having your partner engage with you where you're like, you know, this isn't just how I am that I am like submitting fully to you. This is like a character that I embody, because there's some value in me like taking this role on with and for you, that I get this erotic charge from. So you know, I do hear your point of like, when we decide we don't want to be a certain way, and we don't know where to go from there, then it's very easy to just say, well, fuck it I'm just taking that off the table for myself completely. So I'm wondering if there's a way for this person to sort of access erotic energy and maybe you don't have to stay there but maybe it's a bridge to where you want to go because you might be like oh, wow, like, in some of these roles that we play, like, I like this type of submission, or I don't like this type of submission, you know, as much as I thought I would. Or, you know, maybe this was a turn on in the past, but it's just not working for me now in my body, as I am today. So that's one tidbit of advice, is to kind of subvert this, like judgment that you have of your past self.
Tracy: Exactly,
Myisha: And take that information and kind of like, blow it up and make it expansive. Because there is some awareness that there's something to that, that may be was erotic for you.
Tracy: Totally, and I think there's this thing, especially as this person read my book, like, you know, I write so much in my book about how women are socialized, you know, to, like, want to be wanted. They're focused on others desires, you know, and to kind of channel their own desire into that. And so I think, you know, it sounds like she's on this journey of sort of, like, she's realized how that's impacted her life. And now she's saying, like, screw that. I don't want to do that anymore. But I think there's also, you know, you can reflect on sort of, like, how are you a product of this culture that you've grown up in? And, you know, what of that is part of who you are? What of that can you sort of embrace and eroticised? Like, what can you accept, like, we are a result of living in the world in which we live, you know, like our culture gives us meaning that we then play with in our sex lives. Is there a way in which you can sort of take control of that meaning, and you can play with it so that it's something that, you know, if you're recognizing that something is actually really exciting for you, that it doesn't have to have a sort of moralizing value judgment around it, that you can give yourself that permission, that can be part of your being active in your sex life.
Myisha: Also, working with a sex coach, I was just thinking of like exercises that I give my clients to kind of understand what their core desires are, or what makes sex good for them. And a lot of us just don't take the time to stop and think about what makes sex good for us. Or what our past experience —and this person may have, like, very little to go on, you know, of when sex was like really good for them. Maybe they have one or two examples that are really strong. And even that is enough to sort of build on and take from and, you know, bridge that gap between your past self and like who you want to be sexually in the future.
Tracy: Yeah, sex coaching.
Myisha: It's a plug for sex coaching. All right, we're gonna move into our last segment. Basically, I have three questions lined up for you that are related to sex and relationships. And you get to pick which one you answer.
Tracy: Okay.
Myisha: All right. A, what's a piece of sex advice you'd give your younger self?
Tracy: Heavy sigh.
Myisha: I came up with all of these for you, I feel really proud of them. B, when have your sexual desires conflicted with your politics?
Tracy: You know me. I have to choose one?
Myisha: Yeah, you can answer more. C, what's something you miss about being single?
Tracy: I'm not going to answer C because I don't miss being single.
Myisha: Fair enough.
Tracy: Um, I'll go with the first question of what piece of sex advice I would give my younger self. I mean, I literally feel like I wrote my book, because it was the book that I wish I had when I was like, 23. You know, it was the book that I was sort of searching for at that age. And, you know, so there's much more than just one thing in that book that I would want to pass along to my younger self. I think, one of those pieces of advice would be to not fake orgasms, which I say with a caveat of no judgment if you fake orgasms. People fake orgasms for all sorts of very valid reasons, including like that they want to get it over with like that, you know, totally understandable. But I think I got in this real trap of faking orgasms and performing and setting an expectation of what my pleasure looked like with partners that was so hard to get out of. Like, once I'd set that expectation and I even just had the habit myself and the sense of pressure of like, you know, there's no space for me to feel anything. Like there was no space for me to arrive at a feeling because I was rushing towards performing the feeling. And, you know, when I look back at my younger sex life, the thing that I really regret, and this is why I don't miss being single, by the way, is that I didn't get to experience it, like, I was not really there. So often I was performing. And I, you know, so it's like, it feels like it was such a missed opportunity for pleasure, for exploration. And at the same time, I understand why my younger self didn't feel totally safe to explore, and kind of had her armor on and didn't feel safe enough to be, you know, vulnerable. And, you know, so it's like, it's one of those things where it's a piece of advice that like, how much could my younger self have really taken that on? Given the fact that, you know, is the wilds of my 20s and, you know, dating being what it was, and, you know, my sort of, like, capacity and what I was ready for at that point. It's very easy as an older person now to look back and say, this is what you should have done. But I would want to offer that with a lot of sort of nuance and compassion, you know, maybe even more of like a question mark. Like, what if? What if you didn't fake your orgasm? You know?
Myisha: Yeah, you know yourself very well. And I definitely agree that any advice I would have had for my younger self would be taken as like, who are you?
Tracy: Yeah you don't have to live this life.
Myisha: Yeah, you're me in the future, but like, I'm here now.
Tracy: Yeah, like, okay sure. Easy for you to say, Miss.
Myisha: Yeah. Oh, our 20s.
Tracy: I know.
Myisha: I love/hate questions like that. I think they can be illuminating, but also, yeah. Like, I wasn't listening to anybody.
Tracy: Yeah, right.
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Myisha: Well thank you so much, Tracy for being here. This was a pleasure. And I want people to know where they can find you and your work. So please share that with us.
Tracy: Thank you so much for having me. You can find my newsletter at Tracy Clark-Flory dot substack dot com.
Myisha: Amazing. Any new projects on the horizon?
Tracy: I'm working on a book. I'm not allowed to talk about it yet.
Myisha: All right.
Tracy: But it's gonna happen
Myisha: It's coming. I know what it's about.
Tracy: She knows everything.
Myisha: I'm not gonna tell, it's top secret, but it's great.
Tracy: It's gonna be good. Two years away, but yeah, it's gonna be good.
Myisha: That's how long it takes to birth a book. Yeah, I'm really excited for it. So thank you for being here.
Tracy: Thanks so much for having me.
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Myisha: And thank you for listening. Next time on How's Your Sex Life? I'll talk to content creator Amber Whittington about toxic exes.
Amber Whittington: Once you kind of live life with someone and they’re your everything, and even though you move on, it’s like they’re still kind of a part of your DNA. Your journey. I do wanna add, you said our friends are family, and sometimes in the queer world, our exes are as well.
Myisha: If you want advice about sex or dating, remember to drop us an email or voice memo at sex life and KCRW dot org. We'll keep you anonymous.
CREDITS
Myisha: ‘How's Your Sex Life?’ is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was mixed by Hope Brush. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Myriam-Fernanda Alcala Delgado, Arnie Seipel, and Jennifer Ferro. And a big shout out to our voice actors, we'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.