Falling in love and falling apart full transcript
Myisha: Hi, welcome to a special edition of KCRW's How's Your Sex Life? I'm Myisha Battle, and today I'm joined by Jonathan Bastian, the host of another KCRW show Life Examined. It's all about finding meaning in the modern world. Jonathan, welcome!
Jonathan: Myisha, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me!
Myisha: My pleasure! I am so excited to have you here today because part of the reason for this special episode is to blend together the deep inquiry that you do on Life Examined with the most potent relationship questions that we get from our listeners here on How's Your Sex Life. Today, we're going to talk about two big themes that come up a lot, falling in love and breaking up. These are such common experiences, but we rarely talk about why they're so powerful and we're going to do that today.
Jonathan: That's right. These are, these are the moments that rock our world in the best and hardest ways so we're going to jump into the science, the psychology, a lot of cool stuff to get to so I'm ready to do this. Let's go for it.
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Myisha: The first thing that I want to talk about is what happens to our bodies, even our minds, when we fall in love. What's going on there? Why is that experience so, I don't know, addictive to some people?
Jonathan: That's right. Well, addictive is a great a great word here. So there's this kind of funny phrase I came across when I was just looking back at some of the research of this stuff. Remember, recently, we're all standing outside with our with our beautifully dorky eclipse glasses staring up at the sun? Were you one of those people? I know I was.
Myisha: I was not. I was not in the totality range.
Jonathan Bastian: Ah okay.
Myisha: So I was just sort of feeling if I could feel any energetic shifts, and I didn't.
Jonathan Bastian: Interesting. All right, well, I came across the dorky glasses, and I think I still have them somewhere, but I bring this up because there's a great phrase about falling in love and what happened, it's called total eclipse of the brain, isn't that good? So so it's like, the brain has been eclipsed by something so powerful, and wild and magical. And I want to break down kind of what some of the phases of this really are. So this is some research that comes from Harvard and there's three phases they talk about. And we can kind of mix and match these a little bit. They're not exact, but I want to talk about the science because I think it's really interesting. The first they call it lust, but you know, it's really that first initial wave of sexual desire or gratification. So this stimulates a very primal part of us. And we see a production of sex hormones, right? So testosterone and estrogen. It's that deep part where we think about attraction being related to reproduction. And it's not to say that, you know, we're, we're just trying to meet someone to reproduce, that's that's your own decision. That doesn't have to be part of it, but we have to understand that that's part of who we are. That's in our bodies, right? So there's that that first wave. And then I think there's the more general question of attraction. How we fall in love with someone, their mind, the way they move, what they do, the way they operate in the world. And so this is interesting. This is where we see the release of really, really important things we called neurotransmitters. So dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin. What's what's fascinating here is that these three neurotransmitters are really what regulates our mood, day to day. And they're what goes into all types of drugs, literally. So for example, SSRIs if you take something for depression or anxiety, that is impacting how your brain regulates serotonin or dopamine, there was a great guest on my show, Nicole Krauss, she's a novelist. And she once said, falling in love is like being on a six month cocaine bender. And she's not actually wrong, as it turns out, the active ingredient or you know, what happens when you take cocaine is it's a release of dopamine. And then the following one, kind of the last one is that long term attachment, how we learn to just be with someone over a long period of time. And that's where we see something called oxytocin being released. We call this kind of like the cuddle drug. It's what you feel when you're just skin to skin with someone you love. And also vasopressin and other things. So all in all, these crazy big parts of us are flooding the brain and in a sense, right, we are not operating in reality. I don't Myisha, how does that stuff sound to you familiar stuff you see as well?
Myisha: Yeah, incredibly familiar, both from you know, personally, and in my work, you know, those early stages of dating someone, it's, it's almost like, it's impossible to have a thought without linking it back to that person, which can be really, really annoying to your friends. So, having that self awareness of, hey, that's just where I'm at. I'm gonna this person is just on my mind. I'm gonna be talking about them nonstop. Nothing I can do about it. That's what my brain wants me to do.
Jonathan: Right.
Myisha: Yeah, it's fascinating and I'm glad that you mentioned that this there's this lust phase because I was I do get that that question often. What's the difference between lust and love, or, you know, there's this intense period at the beginning of a relationship that is very sexually charged and then people feel, you know, a loss, when that calms down and those other types of bonding, you know, hormones are online, like oxytocin and vasopressin. So things feel a lot more like chill? In a way that can surprise people because if they're strongly attracted to someone in the beginning, they just assume, "Oh, that's such a great sign that it's going to be like this forever." I mean, we're only human, we like predictability, but our bodies are going through a process, I think it's really great to think about this process of falling in love.You know, it doesn't happen just overnight.
Jonathan: It doesn't. And, you know, it can go on for I mean, there's no exact time period, but it could be six months, some people think it could be up to a year or two years. So this isn't, it can be an extended period of time. And I think it's interesting kind of what you said, when you have a friend that feels so blinded by love, but I think it can also raise big questions like, okay, you're feeling this, but is there a part of your brain that is doing enough analyzing to know if this is actually a good thing or not? Is this part of a good or a bad pattern of you falling in love? What what's the nature of the relationship because, right, these, these hormones and neurotransmitters are so strong that sometimes I think we do lose touch with what's happening on the day to day level on whether or not that's a good fit, right? You've probably seen that as well.
Myisha: Yes, I think we see representations in media that inform how we think love is supposed to happen. And a lot of people feel that if they are swept up, carried away, incapable of doing anything else, but thinking about their partner, their potential partner, even not even solidified yet, just ah, just need this person, that that is the normal and expected way to fall in love. And my experience has been I've fallen in love that way. And I've fallen in love in different ways. And the result of the relationship was, it wasn't a one to one thing where, you know, the power of me falling in love with someone equated to a longer, more stable relationship in the long run for me, in my case, you know? Most of the time if I was having those really, really crazy stirred up feelings in the beginning of relationship, it meant something else. Do you want to talk about that? Because I think it's really interesting.
Jonathan: I'm glad you pointed us, you're taking us right to where I want to go. I think that, you know, we've had people on our show that say, when you feel like you're kind of in that, that that Hollywood pop song, over the top phase of love, right, where you don't know which way is up and which way is down, there's an interesting case to be made that that actually might be your attachment style that's like really, really stirred up, not always in the best way possible. But like, for example, I know that I am somewhat anxiously attached, right? And when I was younger, I would meet someone who is avoidantly attached. So this is kind of like the big dangerous pairing when you study attachments. And what I noticed is that like, it wasn't just falling in love, it was like kind of going crazy, and not sleeping, and wondering every second where that person was, and if they actually loved me or not. And those were not like the good parts of falling in love, but you can convince yourself that they are depending on your attachment style. And I think, you and I were joking about this before we taped, I think both of us when we work with clients, there's a little bit of a question mark, when somebody says I just met someone, they're perfect. I couldn't ask for anything else. We're moving in in two weeks. We're gonna get married like this is it and it's like, okay, well, hold on one second here. Is this attachment stuff rearing its head? Are you really actually think you're finding the right person? So to me attachments really interesting here? Do you feel like that also plays into what we're talking about?
Myisha: It certainly helps my understanding of who might be a better partner for me and I have seen this be beneficial for my clients to investigate, because I'm not a licensed therapist we don't go so deeply in it. But I do provide resources. Something that always seems to come up with my clients, too, is something that I think is actually adjacent to this, and I don't know if you have thoughts about it, but I'm gonna throw it out there.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Myisha: And that's limerence. Limerence is this obsessive phase of the relationship that some people experience more or less. So I have had clients who identified that they are particularly susceptible to limerence. Now, could that be anxious attachment? Maybe, but, you know, I wanted to offer that term in case some people are like, well, I don't feel anxiously attached, or I don't think that that's me, but I do have this really powerful experience. So I don't know if they're different flavors of ice cream, or if they are different things altogether, but I think it's helpful to offer these different terms because some people are like, let's explore this limerence together, let's, let's enjoy it. Let's see where it takes us. Right? They have this awareness, and it helps them to understand, okay, this is a phase, this is just a phase of the relationship and where we're, you know, getting carried away and allowing ourselves to get carried away, but eventually, we're going to be out of this phase hopefully.
Jonathan Bastian 10:52
I think it's, yeah, it's a great word that I think does tie a lot into the question of anxious attachment. And I think one thing, I have to remind myself and a lot of my clients is that sometimes, you know, it's okay, we talked about this when you fall, let's say, hopefully, in love with somebody that has secure aspects have an attachment style, that there's fireworks, but there's also an undercurrent of calmness and safety. And I think that's where we see a lot of longevity too that. And some people confuse that with being bored in a relationship if things aren't feeling fiery and anxious, and you're not thinking about it all the time. But, you know, it's certainly an aspect of love, I try to think about more and cultivate more, which is that can there also be a sense of peace and a sense of a secure attachment along with that, so we could go on with this stuff forever. But I think it's, I think it's all really important to how we think about falling in love.
Myisha: Yes, I want to throw one more curveball in here. Because I think there's another piece to this, that people get wrong, which is consistency versus love bombing, at the beginning of relationships, because that's such, as you mentioned, your brain is already doing a lot. And it's difficult to process what's going on. And it can feel really, really good if someone is constantly contacting you, letting you know that, you know, they're always thinking about you, and what are we doing next? And can we plan the next thing? And Oh, you're so gorgeous. You're so beautiful. You're so handsome, all these things! And how are we not to be susceptible to that? Right. But to me, and what I've experienced and what I've witnessed in my clients is that that tends to be on the unhealthier side, when I first started dating my partner, the thing that really surprised me was that it wasn't immediate, like fireworks. And I had done a lot of self work I had been in what I now call my bottom relationship, so there was no place else to go but up. And I dated a couple other people. But when I met him, number one, I just felt like we were gonna have a good connection. And we did! And it was consistent. There was a lot of moving at an agreed upon pace, I didn't feel like either of us were rushing the other. There was a lot of communication, whether it be me or him of when are we going to see each other next, I'd really like to see you. Let's plan something, and then this sort of nice and organic feeling progression to more and more commitment, you know, the first trip together for his birthday, you know, we met in July so we went away in October. So it's a few months in and you know, there was a nice to me steady pace. So, yeah, I just I'm curious if you have ideas about like how the ideal relationship looks or what a healthy relationship looks like. That's a question that I get a lot.
Jonathan: Yeah, that's such a good one. One thing that I've been thinking a lot more about, I think about it personally, I think about it with clients or friends, is just as a very simple question, which is when you're with when you're with your partner, what does it feel like when it's quiet in a room and what does it feel like to be inside your body at that moment? When there's not, you know, things aren't happening around you, you're just near each other in a room, right? What is your nervous system telling you? So this is kind of like somatic therapy in a way. Do you find that when you wake up and it's quiet, you're kind of you're starting to grow a little irritated or anxious? Do you find that there's a depressive part of you that's coming out? Do you find that your nervous system is getting ratcheted up? Like, I'm really, really interested more and more in that question of what nervous systems are telling each other when they're near each other? Because what we know is that bodies co regulate, right? So when you're with someone and it's healthy, you in your skin and in your nervous system should feel healthy. I'm a nerdy endurance athlete, I talk about it on my show. And there's a model I love to come back to it's called the 80/20 model. It's how we think about training. So 80 percent of the way that you train needs to be consistent and gentle and easy on your body, but you're still kind of doing the work on the day to day level, there's buy into this process. And then the 20 percent is the kind of like the flashes of intensity and enjoyment and excitement and, and taking the big crazy trips and having the wild times together. But, but I like thinking about those ratios, not just in training or in life, but also in love too. Like, I think when you talked about the pacing of your relationship, it seemed like you were kind of chipping away at it at a kind of a pace that felt gentle, and nice and agreeable. But once in a while, you know, you turn it up and have fun, and there's passion and whatever, but those to me are kind of concepts I keep coming back to. Do those resonate with you the way I'm talking about it?
Myisha: For sure, yeah! And that was something, to be honest, that I was reworking my nervous system, you know, during. I was really working hard to, and I've done some work on this before, because I think just dating, generally, you have to be aware of what your nervous system is doing.
Jonathan: Right.
Myisha: Otherwise, you get into some not so fun situations, or maybe some fun situations, but you have mixed feelings about afterwards and that's okay, too. But yes, I felt as if there was something that felt easy and I think that speaks to another, you know, maybe helpful, maybe unhelpful cultural norm that we have, which is when you when you know, you know. When you meet someone, it'll just flow and it'll be easy. And my experience was, that was the case, I wasn't freaking out and looking at my phone all of the time, you know, but I did get butterflies when I saw his name pop up on my phone, you know, it's like, oh, that nice little boost and perk up. Okay, yeah, this is this is nice, but it wasn't that drive to just, I can't, like you said, can't sleep, can't eat, just consumed by the thought of this person, which is incredibly disruptive to your nervous system. And when you're not eating or sleeping, you're just not taking care of yourself! And that can be a really hard place to then show up for a relationship. You know what I mean? Like, it's a self fulfilling prophecy of just like, I'm consumed by this thing and then it is also like sucking the life out of me literally.
Jonathan: Yes, literally. Yeah, you're right! And I think just one quick point I do, I do want to kind of hammer down on for some people for whom they associate like love and anxiety or being stirred up or kind of being on edge is that once again, like, when you find something stable, the initial feeling for some people is that it's boring. And I get that. This is something you have to work through, like, oh, this is just, and I'm not saying it should be boring, boring, boring, like not feeling anything, but I think there is kind of moving beyond these kind of Hollywood ideas of love. It's okay for things to be calm. It's okay for things to feel easy. That doesn't mean that it's the wrong thing. So I think just it's important to investigate these feelings and the words we put on them, because I think that, again, coming back to ideas of consistency, and longevity, this is really important stuff to keep in mind for, I think, a good long term relationship.
Myisha: This has been great. And I know we could talk forever and ever about this. But we're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, we're going to talk about what happens when we fall out of love.
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Myisha: And we're back. We've talked about what happens when we fall in love, but what happens when we go through a big heartbreak, like divorce? We got this question a while ago, and I was perplexed as to who we might get to answer this question. So I'm really glad that you're here to talk about it. I found it really interesting. The question is, what's the science behind heartbreak?
Jonathan: Yeah, such a big one. I mean, as somebody myself who has been divorced, who has worked as a grief counselor, who sees it in friendships all around us I love this question. We talk about it a lot on Life Examined. So all right, we've kind of jumped in to what we joked about as the eclipse of the brain, the flooding of all the good, yummy chemicals that make us feel good. So in a sense, now we're kind of looking at the inverse of this. So you're going through these big changes in the body gets flooded with something we talk about a lot now called cortisol, which is kind of a big stress hormone. This is where it's common to feel signs of fight or flight I so anxiety begins to take over, we see a suppression in mood. And this is what I noticed in myself, and I've seen it in other people around me, one of the big things that can change fast in a breakup is sleep. The inability to fall asleep, or you sleep for a few minutes and wake back up because you're feeling anxious. And then also this, you know, with increased cortisol, we see inflammation in the body. So it's really, really common after a divorce or a big separation, to just catch more colds, or get the flu, or just go through periods where your body feels off in general. And the last thing I want to mention here, just in terms of the science, and I feel like this isn't discussed a lot in terms of why divorce and breakups is so hard, which is that if you have been living with someone and sharing a bed with them, even if things have not been good, but there's still been some physical contact, you're used to skin to skin touch, which produces oxytocin. And that's kind of the drug that binds us together. It's why you know, mothers are so close to their babies all the time, for example. I noticed this after getting a divorce, like I kind of just missed that sensation of the oxytocin of being near somebody, of getting hugs. So all this is to say, it's hard, and it goes on for a really long time. And on average, there's a researcher at the University of Arizona who says, two years. It could be a two year process of grief. And I don't think we give ourselves that grace, oftentimes of thinking that it could last that long. And it's not to say, everybody, it's going to be two years, but this is kind of some of the data we're looking at, and I think we could both agree that this is like hard stuff. And we don't really know, there's no playbook here, right? We don't know how to go about this stuff. And so that's at least kind of the surface level science that I can tell you about.
Myisha: It's fascinating. And it's really helpful to know that it's a process that could take as long as two years, maybe even longer, depending on what happened. You know, I mean, could we describe what's happening post breakup, post divorce, in this heartache stage, as a type of grief? Is that fair to say?
Jonathan: Yeah, and I think that we often associate grief with with death primarily, like I spend a lot of my clinical experience as as a grief counselor, but I think that it's a, it's a word that we should apply, because we are we are mourning the loss of something. In this case, it's a person and what to me what makes divorce or you know, I don't want to say this is just divorce, this is long partnerships in which there was investment. Grief in this case is really interesting, because we call it bi directional. So you're grieving the past, you're grieving what was, but you're also grieving what could have been and that's why divorce, I think, is a real psychological whammy on people because you get married under the thought that you may, I don't know, you might have kids, or you're planning a future or you're going to conjoin families, you dream towards something together, at least you hope you are. And then when that ends, you're forced into this dual level grief of oh my god, what about what we had? And what about what we're not going to have? And I think that's, that's where I think where, you know, that loss can feel very complex for people. And, you know, certainly I felt it and yeah, it grief is a it's a tricky one. And it's a very difficult one to work with.
Myisha: Yeah, I've definitely I mean, I have had several long term relationships cohabitated, separated, it's awful, and then sprinkle in some betrayal into one of those.
Jonathan: Right!
Myisha: And then that's like, a recipe. So I know that for the person going through this my personal experience, again, not eating, not sleeping, like the disruptions that you mentioned before. But also I really started to feel isolated from community that didn't really understand what I was going through. So can you talk about that about how, like, it's almost like I wanted to say, if one is grieving, we're all grieving, you know? Like, there's, I think that there's no way for this to not impact other relationships that you have in your life if you are going through this process that potentially could last up to two years. And it is something beyond your control, because you are having these withdrawal feelings, you're going through the stages of grief, and no one really knows what you're going through, potentially, except the other person who you can't be with!
Jonathan: Right, right.
Myisha: It's, it can feel really lonely. So how do you talk to people about that experience of you know, either reaching out or letting people in?
Jonathan: Yeah, there's a lot of things that can be really helpful here. I think if we talk about that role of friendship, if you're somebody let's say and you've been through big separations, you've been through the divorce you are in an incredible position to help somebody that's going through that. And that way, you know, I, I likea to think often as grief is almost a gift if you can get to that point, right? In the sense that, that when you go through these incredible and difficult life experiences, you're now in a position to help and counsel others in these difficult times. So let's say you have, you're somebody who's been divorced and you have a friend going through it, you're in an incredible position to say, hey, like, I'm with you on this journey. Look where I am! I'm okay, I have made it through, but I'm going to be with you. I'm going to walk alongside you as you get through this. And I think it's important to not try and give advice or step in and say this is the way it has to go. This is the way it has to go, but just the use of kind of therapeutic open ended questions, you know, check ins once a week, once every two weeks of just simple things like, hey, like, how are you feeling right now about things? I know how hard this has been on you. And the remembrance that if we think about grief, as a two year cycle from divorce, like, the more consistent you can be in those check ins, the better because what I have seen in grief and as a grief counselor is that people tend to show up a lot in the first three to six months, and then they stop asking. That often happens after a death too, for example I'd be counseling, say somebody who lost a sibling, they say, you know, everybody came to the funeral, and they were great, but then they kind of stopped calling me. Like they thought the ritual was over. And I think, you know, one of my pleas for anybody that listens is that grief is a much longer process than we want to actually consider and that maybe a year from now from that divorce, you should be checking in with your friend with just kind open hearted questions. So I think to me, that's kind of the basics of how I think people should be with each other in that process. Again, feel like consistency is one of our words of the day here, but I think that's that's how we need to be with people that are going through these big separations.
Myisha: And is there like a friend who really stands out to you that came forward and was that consistent person?
Jonathan: Yeah no, I was lucky! I mean, I, one thing I've been blessed with in my life is good friendships throughout my life, and I'm so grateful for it, and I had a friend who'd been through a divorce, and you know, would just just call me on that random Tuesday night. We know that like nights are the worst time for the person who's just gone through separation, that's, that's where like, all the bad decisions are made, you're like, you're like lonely, and bored, and antsy on a Tuesday, you know? And that's kind of like when you need the friend to give a call, or to send a text or to show up. And I think that just having a few of those guiding lights. And again, it doesn't mean doing a whole lot. It's not throwing parties for people, it's not getting them a new car, when it's it's just that that stability of somebody who is invested in your healing process. And I think that's, that's what can be so valuable in that. And you know, in the process of grief.
Myisha: Absolutely! Man, we really go through a lot, don't we?
Jonathan: Grief! We do! And there's no playbook, you know, like, I just I just want to emphasize that that no one is taught how to be with another in these hard times. We don't all go study psychology, we don't all become therapists and you know I'll say this as a man, you know that the idea of a rebound is kind of real, right? Like it actually does happen. It's not just something we joke about, and I think me included, and a lot of people I know found themselves back in relationships way faster than they can or they should have been. And I think you have to be careful post these relationships, because I call it like, whiplash grief or boomerang grief. Like at some point, you're going to be confronted with this loss. And if it's not attended to seriously, after it happens, it's going to come back around, or it's going to show back up and infect the next relationship that you're in. And so does that, does that resonate with you this idea that, that we have to watch ourselves into where we are in our healing process before we're just kind of throwing ourselves back out there? Would you, would you agree with that?
Myisha: Yes. And I think it increases your odds if you're doing that type of personal inventory that you will find love again.
Jonathan: Yes.
Myisha: You know, I think, how can you create a new meaningful relationship, when there's still a lot of noise from the pain and the separation that you've gone through with your past relationship? It's just, it's very difficult to feel like you've got enough room for the big feelings that we talked about. How can you fully allow yourself to go on that journey of falling in love again, when there's like a whole other process going on internally, that may be limiting your capacity for love, and that it's weird to think, I think we kind of talk about this, like, oh, I'm in the, I'm not in the right place to be in a relationship or whatever, I think those are really common things that we say, but it's more acute to me now when we think about what's actually happening to you, in your body, how you're experiencing the world, the filters that you're using to look at people, it is probably going to be different while you're grieving, or in a stage of grief, versus if you feel like, I feel a bit more settled in my feelings, I feel that I have done a lot of grief work, I've done the personal inventory to think about who I was then and who I want to be now, and what kind of partner I want to be to get back into the dating world more fully you and with that capacity. I think that's like I would love for people to do that!
Jonathan: I totally agree! Yeah. And I think, again, if we think about the science of a breakup, right, so we're suddenly at a loss for all these love drugs. So of course, like, what do we want to do, we want to go fill those things back up again. We want to find someone we want to, we literally want to stabilize our systems, right? And that's, you know, where we think about this idea of withdrawal from love, and it really, really does hurt. But, you know, I want to challenge people to say that there are very few times in your life where you can just like take your foot off the accelerator and do some very serious meditative reflective work, like you sometimes need something to rock your world a little bit to ask yourself, oh my god, how did I get here? Who am I? Like, where, what do I want to do with myself? What do I want my future to look at? Because, you know, you and I both know that our future happiness is so deeply intertwined in our relationship. I mean, this is all the psychology that's coming out now, like the longitudinal studies on happiness point to the quality of relationships throughout our life. And if you cannot find time to deeply examine those, when you really have the time, then it, you're kind of like, there's a great saying from someone like don't let a crisis go to waste, kind of, and I think that that's what these are. So that's my, that's my therapist saying, take some time! Think about it, please do some writing, sit with yourself. I really think it's so important. I really do.
Myisha: Yeah, allow yourself that moment of processing and allow yourself that space to fill yourself back up. So that you're not going out dating at a deficit, and the yearning, which is not really that hot, you know, dating from that place. I've been there! Full disclosure, but the type of people you attract, the kinds of relationships you'll find as a result of that are definitely different from if you've gotten to a place where you feel like there's been some healing done, and you don't have to be fully healed! That's another thing I want to tell people. It's like, we always are like, okay, I gotta, you know, get to this level of perfection and I can't have any residual feelings about my ex before I go out dating. And that's not true, either. It's just, it's just really important to be aware of everything that's going on, and to sit with it, and to make those conscious decisions as opposed to coming from this place of I need, I need.
Jonathan: Yes. And I really, I love the way you put it there that like that there's an aspect of the people you've been with that are going to stay with you. There's a writer that was on our show, Leslie Jamison, she has this incredible memoir called Splinters. It's actually about divorce and raising a child and like, just go read it if you're interested in this stuff, but she called the book splinters because like, splinters hurt, but they're a metaphor for the fact that the people we are with are always kind of in us somewhere, right? They're always going to be a part of us. We bring them with us wherever we go. And I think that it's great to acknowledge that yeah, we don't ever like 100% heal from everything. I was sitting with a much older, wiser person and was asking her how did, you know, are you over your divorce? Or how long did it take? She goes, "Oh, I'm still getting over my divorce." This is like 30 years later, right? But I found a lot of wisdom and grace in that. She is in a new healthy relationship and is fine, but I love the fact that like, you know, grief doesn't start and stop. It is going to be a process we sit with, you know, for a long period of our lives.
Myisha: Yeah. Well, this has been wonderful. I want to shift gears before I have to let you go. A little word association feels like the right move right now. I wanna, I wanna pick your brain and do a classic psychological exercise on you right now!
Jonathan: Oh this is great, we're going back to like Freudian times here together, so I should be laid out on like, you know, the sofa. We're like in a New Yorker Cartoon.
Myisha: Get comfortable, close your eyes.
Jonathan: That's right.
Myisha: Okay, the first word is love. What do you think about when you think about love?
Jonathan: Hope.
Myisha: Hmm. Separation
Jonathan: Anxiety.
Myisha: Relationship.
Jonathan: Like, like a tied knot.
Myisha: Hmm. Life transition.
Jonathan: Open window.
Myisha: Curiosity.
Jonathan: Curiosity hmm. Attractive.
Myisha: Hmm! And trust.
Jonathan: Lifeblood.
Myisha: Ooh, these are great! Oh my gosh!
Jonathan: Oh they feel, they feel like oh my god, what am I saying? But hey, that's the fun of it.
Myisha: No! Open window?! Amazing! I love that!
Jonathan: The poet sneaking out somewhere.
Myisha: Thank you for being you know, again, I'm not a clinical psychologist, but you let me play one. So I really appreciate that.
Jonathan: You did a great job! No, I've loved being able to explore these with you. I feel like we could go on forever, so really, really appreciate your presence and your great questions.
Myisha: Oh, thank you so much for being with us today Jonathan. It's been a pleasure and I hope our listeners will avail themselves of your knowledge and wisdom, and your guests' knowledge and wisdom on Life Examined. Please tell people where they can find you.
Jonathan: Absolutely. Sundays nine o'clock, if you're in Southern California, just listening on the app or wherever, that's when the show is live. And then wherever you download podcasts, Spotify, Apple, the KCRW app, we're everywhere! Come find us. We want to bring you into the conversation.
Myisha: And you do kind of like bonus little episodes too that I really enjoy.
Jonathan: That's right, we have the Midweek Reset, short kind of four minute Wednesday, just a single idea distilled that we want to share with you kind of just like a little mini meditation. And so you can find that and then some some kind of bonus Instagram reels that, you know, when you're flipping around on your couch you can check out as well. So try trying to stay a part of your life as much as we can. Not too much, but we're there for you. So check it out.
Myisha: Thanks, Jonathan.
Jonathan: Thanks, Myisha.
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Myisha: Thanks for listening to our special episode with Life Examined. If you want advice about sex, dating or relationships remember to send me an email at sex life at kcrw dot org. We might answer your question in a future episode.
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Myisha: "How's Your Sex Life?" is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was mixed by Phil Richards. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Thank you to Women's Audio Mission, Andrea Brody, Arnie Seipel, and Jennifer Ferro.