Trust issues with Zakiya Gibbons full transcript

Zakiya Gibbons: Back when I did used to work in offices, I wouldn't say I dated people, but there are a couple times, only like literally like a couple of times where, flirty friends and then you know, it grows into something else, and then it implodes.

[MUSIC] 

Myisha Battle: Hi! Welcome back to another episode of KCRW's How's Your Sex Life. I'm your host Myisha Battle. I am so happy to be joined today by my guest Zakiya Gibbons. Zakiya hosts the hit reality dating podcast called Hang Up. And if you haven't listened to it yet, you need to add it to your queue. Why? Because it's amazing but also because season two is going to drop in May, I just learned that. So Hang Up is sort of like The Bachelor except all of the dates are done exclusively over the phone. So it's also got this Love is Blind component. It's chock full of drama. Plus, as the tagline states, there are no rings attached. So don't expect any proposals at the end, people. It's just about people connecting and it is such a joy to listen to. Zakiya, thank you so much for being here.

Zakiya: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here! 

Myisha: Yay! Well, as you know, this is an advice show. We are gonna get into some questions, but before we do, I'd love to ask you a question. 

Zakiya: Oh, okay! 

Myisha: And that is how's your sex life?

Zakiya: Why am I surprised when I know that that is like the format and yet, I was like, “Oh, what is she about to ask me?” How am I still gagged? Um my sex life is intentionally non-existent. 

Myisha: Okay, okay!

Zakiya: Yeah, yeah, I am, honestly all of last year 2023, I'm not a big dater or capital R relationship person I'm more of a casual dater, solo, poly, non monogamous and just more about the connection than like, I don't know having a girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever. But last year, so I usually go long stretches of not dating people and then usually summertime, I'm getting a little mixie. I find myself in something. But all of last year, I was dating someone. Two different people, so from like, the first half of the year I was dating someone and then the second half I was dating someone. And so then this year, I was just like, I need a break. I need rest. I need to focus on me and have a fallow period. 

Myisha: You're cleansing! You're just like, doing a little cleanse. 

Zakiya: Yes! I am cleansing. I'm detoxing. I'm cleansing. I'm resting. Yes.

Myisha: That's good. That's good. Until summer comes and let's see what happens. 

Zakiya: Exactly. When the sun is out and the titties are out, like I'm out, you know what I mean? So...

Myisha: I know! I do know. I try to like, help people see those patterns, you know, and it's funny because I think it's, uh is it Harlem? Have you seen Harlem, the show? 

Zakiya: Yeah, I've seen a couple episodes. 

Myisha: I think it's in that one where one of the characters has like a winter bae. Like she's really trying to get booed up for the winter to keep warm.

Zakiya: Oh my gosh yeah, that was me last year! Yep, I was booed up heavily with winter bae.

Myisha: Yeah! But then there's also the like, summer heat of just like, you know, especially on the east coast too, where you actually have seasons, where you can like. I remember living there and it's like May 1st, it's just like crop tops and hot pants and like, it's just like, full explosion of skin on the streets. 

Zakiya: Yes! 

Myisha: And it's wild! And it's fun. And it's cool to see and be a part of.

Zakiya: Yeah and you can just like feel the energy in the air. You could just like smell the horniness in the air, which then like, makes me be like, you know what?! I could get back on the apps or like, I could go out and I don't know, flirt with someone, but now I'm like. 

Myisha: It's contagious!

Zakiya: It is contagious! It is contagious, but now I'm like, giving Whoopi Goldberg where I'm like, I don't want somebody in my house.

Myisha: Fully, fully. People do not know how to behave sometimes. So I understand. 

Zakiya: Exactly, yep. 

Myisha: Well, you put a call out to your audience for some questions and we're gonna get to those at the very end. But we have some questions that we thought would be great for you to address for our listeners! So let's go ahead and listen to this first one. And just as a reminder, the questions you'll be hearing are read by voice actors, not the question askers.

Question 1: I broke up with my partner because he wasn't very attentive. After talking things through for months, we're back together. I can see he's changed but I feel like I can't fully trust him. How can I stop being scared of getting hurt again? I feel like it's causing tension. 

Zakiya: Oh, wow. 

Myisha: Yeah, this is a, this is a deep one.

Zakiya: Yeah, no, we're starting deep.

Myisha: Yeah. What do you think this person might do to kind of like, find their rhythm in the relationship? Or deal with these feelings of hurt from the past?

Zakiya: Yeah, no, it's a tough one, I empathize with this person because it's always tough when in your mind you're like, I want to trust this person, but in your body and your heart it's just not syncing up. I mean, I feel like I'm becoming a journaling girlie um years, years later, after my therapist is like, girl, just journal and I don't know why I've been resistant, but even though like I understand the benefits of it, but like, now I've started to make it more of a regular practice for myself. And like, the truth do be revealing itself, you know what I mean? Like, so I feel like this person should journal and ask themselves, like, what do I need from this person, from myself, circumstantially, like, you know, blue skying it like, what do I need to feel trust and security? And then just like freehand and see what comes out, and then see if there's any applications to real life, you know, and maybe it's also just naming the feeling, you know, to the partner being like, "Hey, I see the work that you've been doing, and I appreciate it, and I'm glad we're giving this another go, but I'm feeling myself still have these trust issues." And even if there's not a solution, I feel like, a lot of times just naming the feeling helps so that the other person is more aware. And then you know, will know to you know, put more effort into making the other person feel more secure. And also for the person feeling the trust issues, just, I feel like that might also be like causing pressure within being like "Fuck I need, I should be trusting my partner, I should be" dadada and then that just creates like an anxious feedback loop. So just like putting all the cards on the table, I feel like would help.

Myisha: Yes, I fully, fully agree with that. I really don't like, you know, falling back on these like little quippy sayings, but name it and claim it has been something that I do subscribe to personally, and also recommend for my clients, and it works really well with like anxiety. It works really well with just these, what we would typically lump in this basket of like negative emotions that were, quote, unquote, not supposed to feel, but we do feel them because we're human and it after you've been hurt it, it's not that just because you made a decision to bring somebody back into your life those feelings of hurt are gonna go away. And I think some people feel like, well, if I did take them back, then that's on me, so I can't like complain, quote, you know, like, I think that's the feeling is that they're like complaining about certain things. But like, you let them back under conditions, right? It's like whether those were explicitly stated or not, you had conditions that you thought, hey, I need to set these in order for me to move forward in the relationship. So my question for them would be, is this person actually being more attentive? Like did you point out things that really bothered you? And they're actually actively working on that, like a big one that I see that does cause friction in relationships is like device use, you know? You're always on your phone, you're not paying attention, you're not connecting with me, you know, you get easily distracted if someone texts you or tags you or whatever. And people can work on that relationship that they have. And then there can be noticeable change. I think sometimes we get tripped up because we're like, "Well, they're good this week, but like, what about next week?" You know what I mean? Like, there's that anticipation of like, even if things are better you don't want to trust that they're like, going to get better continuously and that's valid. That's why you know, like you said, name it and just say, “I have this fear, like even though you're doing the things I really wanted you to do, I'm afraid that it's not going to stick and like we're gonna backslide.” And I think even having a conversation about like, how, how can I bring this to your attention in a loving way so that you can be receptive to hearing it, you know, like, if I do see that you're backsliding, or if I do feel neglected, you know, I don't want to like yell and scream at you. I want to be able to like, have a conversation because this is really important. 

Zakiya: Yeah.

Myisha: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that can be active in a relationship when you're trying to heal from this. But I also think like you said, it's really important to give credit when you see that improvement.

Zakiya: Yeah, I'd love to say great answer, but like, obviously, you're gonna have a good answer. This is your job. But I'm like yes! Plus one!

Myisha: Well, you started us off. You got us going on a really great direction. All I did was jump on.

Zakiya: Thank you.

Myisha: This next question is about physical attraction. Let's take a listen.

Question 2: Lately I'm disappointed with how my partner looks. In my previous long term relationship, I wasn't very physically attracted to my partner, but I loved them. When that relationship ended, I was looking forward to being with someone really hot. And my current person was smokin' when we got together. It's not the only reason I fell for them, but it helped. Fast forward a few years... and I don't feel the same way, now that their body doesn't look nearly as good. Sometimes it turns me off a little. Everyday I feel guilty for these thoughts and I don't know what to do. Am I a terrible person? Because I feel terrible. 

Zakiya: I'm just. Sorry! I look like. It looks like the computer's frozen, but I'm just frozen. 

Myisha: No, same!

Zakiya: Because I'm like, damn, how do I, like I'm very mindful that I'm on a public podcast.

Myisha: I think wait, no, I think we should both give just gut reactions to this first.

Zakiya: Okay, well, my gut reaction was like, wow, this resonates. I've been there and I don't have the answers because I've been there and I never came to a conclusion or like I, I have. And let me make it clear, I am not talking about like, I'm talking about like, my whole adult life since I've started dating, so this could really be about anybody. So like, I've been in positions where I'm dating someone, I really liked them, but I'm not physically attracted to them. And then I'm like, you know what? Next time, I'm gonna date someone really fucking hot. And then I do, but then I don't like, like them as much, so like, I, I don't have an answer for what to do when you're with someone hot, and you like their personality, and then you start to lose attraction. Like, I actually would love to hear what you have to say, so that I can apply this advice to myself, because I find myself in this position a lot. And I feel like an asshole for saying it! You know?

Myisha: No, I think that's what makes this like, kind of give, give a gut punch, you know? It's not that this person is saying, like, I need to be with somebody attractive and, you know, if they don't, I'm gonna leave them. It's just so you know, XYZ about their body, whatever judgments are coming up, they're like, this really sucks and I know it's bad, but I don't know what to do. I mean, I have, I guess, like, I've dated so many different types of people in so many different types of bodies, who I've had varying degrees of attraction to and that does ebb and flow throughout a relationship. I know, for me, I have been in the situation where I was attracted to the person first because of like, what we connected on. We're yeah, we're just part of each other's community. And that feels really ripe, you know, for connecting and then like, that doesn't carry us through to like, a sustainable physical relationship. And that, that really sucks when that happens. It's like because you can acknowledge the person for being yeah, who they who they are, and maybe wonderful in a lot of ways, but just not sexually arousing. I've honestly never had the experience of being with someone hot who I was just like, not then attracted to so I'm more curious about what this person is going through in their life. Right? Like so you've had the experience, question asker, of dating somebody who you weren't that physically attracted to and loving them. Right? So that's not the issue like you're not, in my mind, just based on that you're not a superficial dick like you you have had the experience of, you know, believing that love is blind. And then you went the hot route because you wanted to feel that sexual connection. And here you are. You know? I mean, I think it's mostly like just really sitting with and interrogating that of like, I made this choice, and it didn't solve my relationship issues. Right? It's more about you and your choices, as opposed to how this person may have changed because guess what? Everybody's body's gonna change, everything will change when you're with somebody for a long, long time. And attraction, ebbs and flows yes, but like, what are you dealing with internally that's maybe coloring how you feel about your partner, and the changes that their body is going through, you know? How are you interpreting that? Are you giving them grace and compassion? Or, like, is it only judgment? Because you're, you're like, kind of mad at yourself for choosing somebody hot, who then is now not meeting some idealized version of them that you created. That's where my mind goes. So I think we need to go back to journaling. What do you think? 

Zakiya: Yes! Yeah. That wow, I was just nodding along like, I was in like, the first pew at church, because, yeah no, like, I like I said, the question resonated with me to the point where I'm like, I don't have any answers Myisha, you wanna take this one? So like, I'm processing what you were saying. And yeah, and just like, you know, stemming back to my own experiences with this. And with like, most things, it always comes back to oneself and what's going on internally, like, this idea of like, oh, I deserve someone hot, and you know, or I should be with someone hot? So like, what were these feelings of deserving something? Or shoulds? And I feel like yeah, it all comes back to judgments and preconceived notions and idealized, like narratives, movies in your head, and when it doesn't line up, then you kind of freak out. And then maybe it like, kind of triggers some insecurities of your own! And, yeah, no, definitely sounds like a look in the mirror solution.

Myisha: Are they less attractive? Or are you less attracted to yourself? 

Zakiya: Oh!

Myisha: Ok? No, I'm sorry. I just. I wanted to try on the persona of a person who talks like that on podcasts all the time.

Zakiya: That was spot on!

Myisha: Okay, we're gonna take a quick break but when we get back Zakiya and I are going to tackle a question from one of her followers about leading someone on.

[BREAK] 

Myisha: All right, we are back. Zakiya, this last question came in from one of your followers on Instagram. Let's take a listen. 

Question 3: When I was in Rio, I was hanging out with a yoga instructor and I knew from the start that I didn't really get romantic vibes from him. Maybe sexual, although our chemistry wasn't that amazing, but I liked our conversations so I enjoyed being friends with him. I felt nervous telling him that I wasn't very romantically or sexually interested, because I was worried that he would stop being my friend. And there's layers to it, because he has more power over me in a way because he can provide me with a lot more than I could provide him since I'm a tourist. I guess I provide him with conversation and sex, but I don't know anything happening in the city so I don't add a lot of value. Part of me wants to keep seeing him. But I also feel nervous about telling him that I just want to be friends. At the same time. I'm wondering, Am I using him? Is this manipulative in a way? For what it's worth I don't think he's romantically interested in me. Just sexually interested.

Zakiya: Hmm. Oh, man, I feel like damn, I feel like I'm just outing myself as a messy ass person. And we've only been talking for like 15 minutes. This also resonates with me!

Myisha: That's why they're very great questions. I feel like there's a, there's a part of us that this all resonates with. Let's be honest. 

Zakiya: That is. That is true. And that's kind of another reason why I took a break from dating  for the foreseeable future because I feel like I find myself in situations where I'm like, shit, am I leading this person on? And I feel like that feeling. I don't know, as someone who casually dates I, I stumble upon this feeling every time so often so, so yeah, I could see, well, first, my first thought is, would you want to be friends with someone where that friendship is contingent on whether you're fucking or not? You know what I mean? Like, would you actually want that kind of friendship? And can you, is it an authentic friendship if that insecurity is in the back of your mind, because if I'm, you know, I have like, a fuck buddy or a friend who I'm having sex with, and I want to keep that friendship, but I feel like I can only keep it if I'm sucking them, then I would feel uncomfortable in that dynamic period, you know what I mean? I feel like I wouldn't be able to, like, be myself fully, let loose, I would feel like I would need to be putting out for access to them and to each their own, but for me and my definitions of friendship, that just wouldn't be enjoyable for me. And so, you know, my first thought is, again, just like putting the cards on the table, just being direct, and just being like, "Hey, I really love hanging out with you. I think you're so cute. We have such a great time together. I love talking to you, but I'm feeling more of a friendship vibe and I would love to keep hanging out with you as friends. But if you're interested in something romantic or sexual, you know, unfortunately, I can't provide that for you. So I totally understand if you don't want to talk or hang out anymore, but just want to check in to see how you're feeling?" That's probably what I would say.

Myisha: Yes, I would agree because here's the thing. You laying that all on the table, you know, helps that person know where you stand, takes the guesswork off of them about what this really is. And also, there are other people that you can explore the city with.

Zakiya: Right! Like you're in Rio, like, there's so many hot friendly people who want to show you around. 

Myisha: Yeah, and if not then solo sightseeing it is. I'm not so sure that I agree with the power differential that this person kind of is describing because, you know, as someone who's been I guess on both sides of this where I've been a new place and I have connected with people who have shown me around the city, and maybe it's friendly, maybe it's more than friendly, or whatever. And I've also like, you know, maybe help people who like I get connected to they're like, "Oh, you know, Myisha is in San Francisco, blah, blah, blah." Like, I think there's not, I don't see that as like, so much of a power dynamic. I mean, maybe because I know my my way around, but now we have literal, you know, maps on our phones and all that like, and city guides and like all kinds of things that can facilitate being in a new place. I think the human connection and like them giving you the sort of like local experience is a value, but your tourist energy is also a value. 

Zakiya: Yeah!

Myisha: Case in point, like, I know, tons of people who like when they do come to San Francisco, they're like, oh, yeah, I heard about this thing and I've never heard of that, this thing! I have never heard of it, I didn't know it existed, like it's been there for damn near 100 years, you know, it's just not on my radar of things that I would explore, because I'm not a tourist of my own city. So I just want to push back on that, because I don't want them to feel like they do not have power in this dynamic that they don't have power to like push back on it and say like, hey hey, like, this is what I'm looking for. I'm here, just for a short time and it's really nice to have a friend to guide me around, etc. And if that's all you have to say, to kind of diffuse it, I think that's enough, you know, that, like, I'm here, and what I need is a friend, and you can be that friend. Now, if you go out and you hook up with other people, that's your business, because that's your business. You know, it doesn't reflect on them so much, you know, especially if you've been transparent about like, where you see your dynamic going. So I'll pause and let you respond if you have anything else to add to this. 

Zakiya: Yeah, I mean, I agree like I yeah, the other thing that caught my attention was this person saying, oh, I don't, I'm not bringing any value or I don't have any power. I would be like, give yourself more credit, you know? Like this person is an adult and they're probably not taking you places because they don't want to or they feel obligated or you know what I mean? So yeah, I agree. Like, I feel like there's not that much of a power differential that would give me pause. 

Myisha: Yeah, yeah, so I think this person can feel pretty comfortable knowing that they can assert a boundary around this relationship. And then if this person that's been so nice and kind to guide them around the city responds negatively to that then it goes back to your point like do you even want a friend like that? That's like only doing these things because they want to have sex with you, you know? 

Zakiya: Yeah. 

Myisha: Like, that's not cool. But it's I guess, you know, I guess it's their right to try it this way and try that dynamic and hope for the best, but then you have your end to uphold, which is to kind of establish what your boundaries are or what your expectations are of this of this friendship that you're building. Whatever it is, like, we want this person to explore, explore Rio have a great time. And hopefully, they'll have a great friendship as a result. 

Zakiya: Absolutely and honestly, a lot of friendships are made in the beginning, where it's like, oh, do I like you? Are we attracted to each other and be like, you know, what? We're better as friends! So I feel like this could end that way and they can, you know, walk off into the sunset hand in hand, platonically! 

Myisha: I agree. I love that and totally, totally, I've had that experience. 

Zakiya: Yes, yes. Me too. 

Myisha: Okay. Well, that was um, that was our last like, dating question. Where do you want to go now? 

Zakiya: So I told my friends that I was gonna be talking to you and on this show. And they were like the key up, please ask Myisha these questions. We want her advice. So I actually have some questions for you from some of my group chats. If that's okay? 

Myisha: Ooh, yes. We love a group chat question. Amazing.

Zakiya: Yes, it always goes down in the group chats. The spiciness!

Myisha: Yes.

Zakiya: Okay, so Myisha one question I got was "How do you send the first message on dating apps? I've realized that when I'm trying to send that first message, it almost always feels forced or fake. Unless the person gave you a really easy way to break the ice." So what do you think?

Myisha: Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's always going to feel forced or fake, unless there is something that they have in their profile that is like an easy entryway into, you know, starting up a conversation with them. I mean, I always advise people to try to extract one of those nuggets. You know, it could be as simple as like, "Oh, like, you're at this, you know, festival that I go to every year, how funny. What year was this?" Or, you know, "I love that diner," or like, "your dogs really cute, what's their name?" you know, whatever. So sometimes you can glean something in it glean something from it. In the cases, when there's nothing, I would actually rethink that person.

Zakiya: Yes! 

Myisha: You know what I mean? Like if I am trying so hard to find something that I think I can relate to you on or bring up in conversation, that's already kind of like, that's like a yellow flag, you know? 

Zakiya: Exactly.

Myisha: It's proceed with caution. It's like, I don't know what's going on with this person and they're not somebody who maybe is like, so proactive with the apps that they're taking the steps to put themselves out there and give people something to latch on to so this is actually something I work with my clients on all the time. I look at their profiles, and I'm like, okay, what are you saying here? I always say that the profile is an invitation to you know, your party, basically, like, what are you doing there? How are you spending your time? How do you want people to spend time with you, because people who see that will then have something to respond to and be like, "Oh, my gosh, you like this, I like this. You go to this place, I love that place." Whatever it is, you know, you work here, I work there, whatever it is. So that's my advice, you know, just just point blank, like, it's always going to feel awkward. It's always gonna feel strange, but I'm a firm believer that anybody of any gender can make that first move. Do not hold back, if this is somebody that you really think you want to connect with so even if they don't have that much going on in their profile, you think they're hot and you want to, you know, meet up with them, hook up with them, great, like just a simple like, hey, I really like your profile, you know, how's your day going? Whatever! You know, yeah, is it like the most inventive response or, you know, question to ask? No, but it gets you in the door and you'd be surprised at how many times people don't take that risk of just asking a question, even though it might be kind of boring, lame question, but it could lead to something more. You don't have to be like so over the top with your question and how insightful it is.

Zakiya: Yeah! I tend to lead with humor if it's giving that or to respond to something specific in the profile, but if I'm not feeling clever, or witty or funny, then it's just like I ask myself, like, "Wait why did I swipe right on this person to begin with?" and then just name that thing you know? So just be like, "I think you're really hot" or "You have a beautiful smile, or "Your third picture made me laugh," you know what I mean? It's just, if you're drawing blanks, just ask yourself why did I swipe and then just share that with the other person and the other person will feel flattered and be like, oh, my god, thank you! And then we'll engage! 

Myisha: Exactly, yeah! And they, if you've done a good job on your profile, they might respond with like, "Hey, I like this thing" that you know, because that's what happens like a match with somebody and then it's up to somebody to start the conversation. So any point of connection or entryway in there, like, I don't know how many times I mean, this just happens naturally, you match and then you have to go back and look at that person's profile and like, kind of refresh your memory. So if somebody sent you a message, and it's kind of generic, you go back and you're like, oh, what was this person about? Oh, the artist! Cool. Oh, like you're a painter? You know what I mean? And then you, the other person can then pick up the conversation. It's not all on you, you know?

Zakiya: True! 

Myisha: Yeah. Okay, what's our next question?

Zakiya: Okay. So, the next question is, "How do you meet people if you're more introverted?"

Myisha: Mmmm. This is a great question because I work with a lot of introverts, like, rarely do I work with people who are like, yeah, you want me to go out and meet people? Easy. You know, like, obviously, I think that there are challenges for people who are like that, too, but it's so rare for me to work with people who are that inclined. So the thing that I try to impress upon my introverted clients is to like, think about where dating falls in your like spectrum of energy, you know, that you have to give on any given week, day, month, year, you know, what I mean? Like, is this the time of year where things are really busy at your job, and you know that and is dating really, like, gonna drain and deplete you to the point where you're canceling dates last minute, you're like, you know, dragging your feet, you're bringing a lot of like that, just sluggish energy into the dating dynamic? If so, then like, maybe now's not a good time to add dating to your plate, but if you're in a place where it feels very spacious, and like, you're like, yeah, like hanging out with people seems like it's good because like, I actually have been in hibernation for a while and need to kind of poke my head out and see what's going on, great! But also set your expectations to a reasonable degree of like, how much of that because that's the one thing that, you know, we're, we're an all or nothing culture. So it's like, I'm dating, I'm not dating, I'm dating, you know, no, it's like that kind of hot and cold, especially for introverts who can get very overwhelmed by social interaction and then have to retreat. So it's like, okay, maybe you're, you know, willing to start dating, but the first step is, I'm just going to get on the apps and just start talking to people and see how that feels. You know, just kind of take the temperature of how that feels. Is it draining? Is it energizing? Is, is it some combination of the two? Do you have more energy for it on the weekends? You know, that sort of thing, really being strategic about it and then the other thing that I recommend for introverts so that it's not as scary, like, you don't have to go hit the bars, you don't have to go to the clubs, you know, you can organize your dating around events that are very targeted towards things that you would already like to do and then try to find community around that. What's tricky is I've worked with clients who are like, I love to sew. It's like, a very solo activity, you know, but like.

Zakiya: I could see some Brooklyn lesbians loving a sewing circle! 

Myisha: Right, lesbians! But like, if you're straight, you know, not to say that there aren't men sew, I've seen them on the bus just knitting away their little scarves and everything, it's very cute. But at the same time, like if you just join a knitting circle or sewing circle, your odds are not going to be great. 

Zakiya: Yeah.

Myisha: But I will say this. If you join that knitting circle and that sewing circle, and you tell your community that you are single and looking that might produce some results.

Zakiya: Oh my god, I can see so many girls being so into that. I mean, even when you just were like yeah, "Those guys that knit on the train," I was like, "Yes!" Like I don't know that's, that's like, that's cute. We love a dude with a hobby, especially like a soft hobby like that. Like that's, that's cute! I would say put that in your profile. Well, now I'm just like blending the two question askers and coming up with like a composite.

Myisha: No, but they're related Zakiya! You are star student right here. They are totally related because, you know, as an introvert, you can identify that on your profile, you can be like, "Hey I'm an introvert" or "I'm a slow burn" or like, you know, like, "Hey, hit me up to sew!" Whatever it is that you want to do as, like, a kind of low stakes entry date, put it in the profile, because the people who are drawn towards that are going to be like, "Oh, I've never seen that before, like, that sounds! That sounds fun, I want to do that with somebody, and this person might be like a really good match for me, if they're already thinking that that's an ideal date for them." 

Zakiya: Exactly. 

Myisha: So part of it is about like, finding your community and doing things that you already love and just sort of leveraging that. And then part of it is also utilizing the tools that you have through online dating, to try to like, invite people to the things that you want to do that aren't going to be that overwhelming to you, sensorially or energetically.

Zakiya: Self awareness is really hot! You know, just like seeing that someone knows who they are, and like what their limits are, and articulating that. So I would love it if someone was like, I'm actually not into bars, but like, I would love to take like a chill walk in the park or something. I'd be like, "Oh, okay, planner! Okay, ideas! Okay, taking initiative!" So I like what you said about like, kind of leaning, not looking at it as a weakness, but looking at as a strength like, what am I bring to the table that's unique? And just lean into that. 

Myisha: Yes, absolutely! Both people have equal say in what they're going to do and like, especially if you're thinking about long term relationships, being an introvert who dates an extrovert, like that's foundational to how you will relate to each other for the rest of the relationship. So it's really important for both people to be advocating for, for what they want. 

Zakiya: Yeah. Love that. 

Myisha: What do we got next?

Zakiya: Can you date in the workplace?

Myisha: The simple answer is yes. You know, what we see is that workplace romances have drastically decreased over like the last 10 years and I think that that has good reason, right? I mean, there's been a reckoning of power abuses in the workplace, etcetera and so people are a lot more cautious, but historically, it's been a place where people have met, you know, fallen in love and started partnerships. And, you know, a couple things from my personal past, like I was an HR director when I had a relationship with someone at my office, and we were together for about a year and a half, I believe? And definitely like flirty friends for maybe six months to a year before that. So like, he was the guy I went to lunch with. 

Zakiya: Ugh, I love that phase! 

Myisha: It's so cute! 

Zakiya: The flirty friends phase. Oh, I love it. 

Myisha: It's so cute and he was very sweet, it just didn't work out long term for the two of us, but you know, people saw it coming in the workplace. And I also was in a position obviously, like, I literally ran payroll. So I literally paid him, like I knew what he made and all this, like, there was a weird dynamic to it, so of course I reported, like when we officially decided to start dating, I let the CEO know. And most companies if they don't have an outright, like ban on workplace relationships, which I kind of think like, I don't know, man, like banning things only makes it more illicit and therefore like more attractive to people, when I think like, this can be done in a really responsible way it can, it absolutely can be and the way you do that is by putting reporting measures into place. What I love about the workplace romances that I've seen, so I worked for a cultural exchange, nonprofit, and I hired people all the time, right? And they're these wonderful, amazing people that I'm like, "Yes, I want you on my team! Yes, I want you on this team. Oh, I'm so excited!" Like, everybody's excited. And then you see at, you know, happy hours, like people start to couple up, and people started to like, flirt and things like that.

Zakiya: It's always the holiday party when you're like "Oh shit! I knew it!" You know? When you see people canoodling, that's when the tea is spilled.

Myisha: Zakiya, when I tell you that, as an HR director, that was my nightmare! Holiday parties were my fucking nightmare.

Zakiya: It always goes down at the holiday party! 

Myisha: Too much but at the same time, like I saw, probably during the time that I was there,  five relationships start and end in like, long term committed partnerships, a couple of them because it was a cultural exchange environment and people had been living abroad and later like, we're traveling the world together, peace! Like so beautiful, really, really loving, very, you know, honestly, like, above board, like everybody knew what was going on. So we were really like I thought, exemplary when it came to this, 

Zakiya: I bet! 

Myisha: And I think it created a pretty decent environment. So the short answer is yes, you can meet people at work. And even people that I work with now who are like partnered, they talk about workplace crushes, or their work husband, or work wife and like, those relationships can be really strong and meaningful, even if they're not like, officially sanctioned by the company. But like, just you are going to connect with people that you work with.

Zakiya: This question and the conversation makes me nostalgic for pre COVID time when I used to work in an office, because now I work from home a hundred percent of the time, and I live by myself. So I'm like, I miss having crushes! I miss just like having even just like, eye candy, just like a narrative, a fantasy in my head. But like back when I did used to work in offices, I wouldn't say I dated people, but there are a couple times only, like literally like a couple of times, where flirty friends and then, you know, it grows into something else. And then it implodes. That's just been in my experience. I'm not saying that that is the destiny for everybody!

Myisha: Oh it can! It absolutely can and it can be really bad if things go poorly, because you still have to see that person at work. 

Zakiya: Yeah.

Myisha: You, you have to be aware of those risks as you're going into it and talk about it openly as I did. I was like, "Look, is this gonna be weird for you that I like, know, your salary, and we just started dating?" You know what I mean, like, "Is it gonna be weird for you that like, I'm organizing all these things for your team?" You know, like, it's weird. It's a weird dynamic. So, be aware of the pitfalls of it, but if you're cautious and you're, you know, navigating things as an adult, you know, it's, it's cool. It can be really fun. 

Zakiya: Mhmm. No, it is fun.

Myisha: Well,  this has been so much fun Zakiya. Thank you so much for your time and for being here. We're very excited for season two of Hang Up. Please let us know where we can keep track of things from you, the show, etcetera, we'd love to hear it.

Zakiya: Okay, so you can follow me on Instagram at zak sauce, z-a-k underscore sauce, and I post all things Hang Up. You can also follow our show at Hang Up Show. And this is a great time to binge season one, so that you can be ready for season two to drop on May 7 and you can find Hang Up wherever you get your podcasts. I'm really excited for people to hear season two because season one followed a 26 year old bisexual woman living in Richmond, Virginia. And season two is like a whole different vibe. The star of season two is a 41 year old, trans non-binary single parent who is recently divorced and getting back out on the dating scene through Hang Up! So it is a very fun wild ride.

Myisha: I love it and I can't wait. Thanks again Zakiya!

Zakiya: Thank you so much.

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Myisha: That's it for today. Thanks for listening. Do you need advice about sex, dating, or relationships? Be sure to drop me an email or voice memo at sex life at kcrw dot org. We might answer your question in a future episode. Again that email is sex life at kcrw dot org. 

[MUSIC] 

Myisha: How's Your Sex Life? is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. Our engineer is Nick Lampone. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Digital Island Studios, Arielle Torrez, Malorie McCall, Adam Serrano, Connie Alvarez, Arnie Seipel, and Jennifer Ferro. And a big thanks to our voice actors. We'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.

Voice Actor 1: This is Lena Ransfer. Thanks for listening. 

Voice Actor 2: This is Marque Greene. Be sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

Voice Actor 3: This is Nick Bihr. See you next week for another episode of How's Your Sex Life.