What Makes Something Kinky? transcript

[COLD OPEN WITH MUSIC]

In what capacities or parameters can kink create ultra intimacy?

Myisha Battle: From KCRW, this is “How's Your Sex Life?” and I am Myisha Battle. 

[INTRO]

Myisha Battle: How are you today? I'm so excited to be back with you this week. We're at episode six you guys, this is wild. And today we're going to do things a little differently. We have a guest co host. That's right. It's our very first guest of this season and he is someone who I am very proud to say is part of my community. His name is Justin Hall. Justin is a cartoonist, educator and scholar who is currently the chair of the MFA in comics program at California College of the Arts. His accolades are many. And he is at work on a graphic novel weaving memoir with queer San Francisco history for Abrams Books. And he's here with me now in the studio. Justin, thanks so much for joining me today.

Justin Hall: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here for the sexy sixth episode.

Myisha Battle: We love alliteration here. 

Justin Hall: I think I sort of lisped that but ok

Myisha Battle: So Justin, typically we do this show Q&A style. And we got one question that I just felt needed a bit more of a deep dive. So I'm glad you're here because it's about kink. And as someone who recently posted a comic in honor of Folsom Street Fair, which is a celebration of all things kinky, the depiction was of a man who was bound and gagged. I thought you'd be a great guest to help me out with this question today. So let's take a listen.

Question: Hey Myisha, this is a question from my partner. In what capacities or parameters can kink create ultra intimacy? And in what ways does it actually block real intimacy?

Myisha Battle: This is a really great question. I think first, it would be good to have just like a working definition of what kink is, which, from a sexological standpoint, it's just non-normative sex, and we can talk about what normative is until the cows come home, but essentially, it's like sex for procreation. That's it. So that means that kink is like a whole world that is just not that. And I mean, I know that that kink exploration can open up so much in terms of intimacy. I mean, there's a lot of trust involved, a lot of communication. But I'd love to hear from you, you know, maybe address this first part of like, how might kink create what this listener calls ultra intimacy?

Justin Hall: Well, first of all, first off, I just have to say that the man with the question has, or the person with the question has a wonderfully sexy voice. It's just sort of the first thing that grabbed me. But moving moving beyond that, my first reaction is really about, I think that kink can be extremely intimate when it's manifesting different desires and fantasies by the people involved, right, because that's a deep dive into someone's psyche, and to sort of listen to someone else, understanding their their relationship to desire their own sort of, you know, oftentimes, even hidden desires, and that's incredibly intimate thing to do to really trust someone else to go in that journey with you is incredibly intimate. It can be very bonding. However, I would say that as, as a relationship continues into sort of, it might have a longer term relationship. And that can get a little bit more complicated when it has a kink basis to that relationship. So for example, I know many people who have long term daddy boy relationships, for example, or you know, pup relationships, you know, and that can last for a long time, but sometimes they also then go into being primary relationships, right? So they might be husbands or, you know, primary partners of some kind. And then that can get a little trickier, because the power dynamic that's part of that kink relationship, then can get in the way of the functional intimacy of a long term, primary relationship.

Myisha Battle: Yeah, so we're drawing a distinction here between, like, a situational kink relationship, versus like a lifestyle relationship. I mean, some people really do in embody their role, you know, as a Dom or as a sub twenty-four seven with a partner. But that's a different type of relationship than one that has a kinky component to it. But you know, you're cohabitating and you have to, you know, maybe pay bills and do that in a, you know, like fight it out in a way that like, you know, your needs are heard and, and you're seen as maybe an equal partner that maybe wouldn't be as allowed in a lifestyle environment where you know, the bills are paid daddy's paying it, obviously, I'm just a baby, I don't have any money.

Justin Hall: Right I'm in a diaper what do you expect from me?

Myisha Battle: Right or like, I'm just here like, I clean the dishes like I do everything else. But like, that's your responsibility where things are, like clearly delineated.

Justin Hall: I mean, to be to be fair, the traditional heterosexual relationship has marriage was that in fact, women couldn't own property or like a credit card, and the man had to actually escort them everywhere, right? So so this sort of kink oriented long term relationship is in fact sort of ingrained in our, the traditional relationships that we look to in our culture.

Myisha Battle: I love that you said traditional because there's this whole dialogue now about like Trad life, you know, and Trad wives and I'm like, if that's your kink, man!

Justin Hall: It seems like a very extreme. It's a very extreme kink, like just stick with watersports and rimming like Trad life sounds really out there.

Myisha Battle: It's a lot. It is a lot. But you know, we're not here to kink shame. 

Justin Hall: God bless. Goddess bless whatever, whatever's happening here.

Myisha Battle: Well, yeah, so the block in intimacy, I think, you know, for someone who's exploring this, maybe for the first time and is sort of wanting to get their parameters, and wanting to know, okay, how do I, how do I go deeper with intimacy and make sure I'm avoiding, you know, the things that might cause a block in intimacy. Here's one thing that I think can be really tricky, that could be a barrier to intimacy, as far as I've seen it with my clients is, like, you mentioned so many different dynamics, or names for the dynamic of, you know, someone who is more dominant, and someone who is more submissive, but that language is really important.

Justin Hall: Yeah, words matter tremendously. And it's one thing to sort of explore in a visceral way, a kink that might be, you know, in the moment, right, like you're exploring together, you know, fisting or something like that, and you're just sort of in the visceral, physical moment of it, and that's really exciting and wonderful. But if you're taking kink into roleplay, or into a continuing dynamic, you're going to have to bring in words. And those words become really important. And they really should be mutually agreed upon, right? So even though, you know, pretty much everything we're talking about is, is some sort of allegory for power dynamics, right? That's really what it's about this sort of at its core. But those those permutations of it, those manifestations of the power dynamic, really do matter. Like I'm, you know, very much allergic to dogs. So, um, so the whole pup play thing just makes me want to sneeze. It's not gonna work for me.

Myisha Battle: Yeah, I love it. Um, well, I think that we have addressed this person's question, you know, there there are edges. And I definitely think there are possibilities for this to deepen their experience with their partner. Really, we talked about a lot of things that are so important in any relationship, but specifically in kinky relationships. We talked about communication, trust, aligning on desires, and then you know, creating a safe environment for that.

Justin Hall: And I think kind of the figuring out where the kink rests in the relationship, whether it's a compartmentalized thing that only happens in the bedroom, or is it something that you want to bring into your daily life in some way? And that's a very different kind of conversation. But of course, all of them require conversations. But I think the main thing is the continuous speaking to their partner with that sexy voice. And I think that's going to really, really help out.

Myisha Battle: All of the act - all of the questions are voiced by voice actors. You know...

Justin Hall: Oh burst my bubble! Oh, my goodness, okay whatever.

Myisha Battle: Maybe we can put you in touch. We'll see. All right, well, we have to take a quick break. But when we come back, we'll be chatting with Justin about what actually makes something kinky for him. 

Myisha Battle: And we are back. I'm excited to dig into this conversation about kink a little bit more by asking our lovely guest today, Justin Hall, some questions about himself. So you know, I have clients who are like, 'oh, I'm not kinky, I just like, really love to be choked out and dominated' or whatever. And even before we had this session, you were like, I'm no kink master, or expert, I think was the word that you use. So it just strikes me how relative this term is. And we talked a little bit earlier about how it really depends on the community that you're in, like, what constitutes kinky, and how kinky are you, etc. It's a spectrum. But you know, what, what it comes down to is this this idea of non normative sex so that can mean so many different things to so many different people. Do you have a personal definition of what you think kinky is that you kind of apply to the sex that you're having in the world? Or does it change based on the person? Does it change based on your mood?

Justin Hall: Yeah, I think it's not it's not a binary sort of kink or non kink. It's definitely this sort of range of possibilities and absolutely, it's contextual, right? So what you were saying before, you know, for for some people, you know watersports would be really incredibly kinky. And it doesn't even sort of occur to me as like, if someone wants me to piss in their mouth, like, of course, like, I mean, I'll just hydrate first. I mean, whatever. It doesn't even strike me as particularly kinky. And so, but, or, you know rimming or something, which just seems like basic, like I mean, come on. Yeah. In fact it seems more kinky to me to not for if someone every once in a while I will run, run into a guy who doesn't, usually someone who's like, exclusive top and has this sort of, sort of weird, macho, like, investment and being his, you know, alpha top, and he won't touch won't touch another guy's dick or like, won't, or won't rim someone or some stuff like that just seems so completely out of bounds to me that that seems actually kinky, as opposed to not kinky. Because it's such a fetish is sort of reverse fetish with the fetish is not doing something right. So, yeah, I, you know, my personal definition is, I tend to be able to roll with whatever people come to me with, right, I really get off on someone else's pleasure, right. So if someone else is really into this thing, I love going there with them like that is the feedback loop is I'm all about that feedback loop. So I can roll and I have rolled with pretty much every scene you can imagine, at some point, but I tend to not instigate that stuff, because it doesn't, unless it's the feedback loop I'm getting from the other person, I think, the cue I'm getting from the other person, then I tend to just sort of default to my own. I want to suck and fuck, which just seems sort of seems sort of normative, I think of myself as sort of like a like a French vanilla. Like a hard vanilla with, you know, with a little vanilla flakes that used to get for Breyers ice cream. 

Myisha Battle: Yeah, which goes with everything!

Justin Hall: Which goes with everything and it's really tasty. And it's not boring. It's actually really great flavor. Yeah. But it's yeah, but it goes with everything. So that's sort of what I how I think of myself. 

Myisha Battle: I love that. I do love that. So your kink is kind of seeing the pleasure in other people's kinks or you know, the things that they enjoy.

Justin Hall: I'm the I'm the scoop of vanilla ice cream at the top of any kind of pie you want. 

Myisha Battle: There you go. A la mode. That's your nickname from now on, I'll put you in my phone now. Is there something that has surprised you about the kink community, especially here in San Francisco? I think we can talk more about that or, like how maybe it compares because you are a world traveler and you know, how that the community that we have here maybe differs from places other than SF?

Justin Hall: I will say I will just give a shout out to San Francisco. I keep on, I know I keep on mentioning San Francisco in this in this podcast, but it's it's an amazing place in a lot of ways and a shout out to the people that have made it so right? And in particular the kinksters. I've been doing a lot of historical comics based on queer San Francisco history, and looking into the early leather scene and kink scene here. And it's, you know, Folsom Street used to be called Miracle Mile, because there would be like, motorcycles lined up for blocks and blocks and was all leather bars and bath houses and sex clubs. 

Myisha Battle: Can you imagine? 

Justin Hall: Oh, my god!

Myisha Battle: Oh, wow. That's awesome to think about.

Justin Hall: Yea I know and you know, they fought hard for those for those liberties and paid dearly for, for, you know, obviously with the AIDS crisis. So, and gentrification, you know, those battles actually, the Folsom Street Fair started as an anti gentrification march or street protest, actually, that became sort of the kink, the biggest, the largest kick event in the world. But I just, you know, San Francisco is remarkable in that in that way. It's incredibly open and incredibly dynamic, and non judgmental, and experimental and exciting and friendly. And it's a good community here. And it's interesting, like, you know, like looking at, for example, Berlin, where things you know, the Germans are a little bit more rule bound. So the difference between Folsom here and then Folsom Europe, which takes place in Berlin is interesting where Folsom Europe is very much, you know, it's almost all gay man, usually cisgender gay men, and they all have this sort of specific parties and the specific, it's wildly sexual, it's very, very sexual, even more so than San Francisco. But, um, but it's sort of, it's got its clear categories, whereas in Folsom here in San Francisco, you really don't know what's gonna be around the corner it could be, you know, any sort of display of, of sexuality or gender or whatever. So it's really, that's exciting.

Myisha Battle: Yeah, I agree. Man, you brought up so many things that, I don't know, kind of, make me think about you as a person. Because one of the things that I thought about when I was thinking about a guest to come on for this episode was, you know, somebody who really kind of seamlessly weaves sex into work, into play, into travel, into, I mean, this is really a through line. And that's something that my clients really struggle with it's like, if they embrace this sex piece, then what does that say about them? And I'm in awe that like, you're like, well, I teach at this university, or I'm a chair of this, you know, art school. And, you know, your, your profile on Instagram is not private. You know, you're a fixture of the community. When I first met you, I was invited to a show of yours, it was packed to the gills I couldn't even see the work because you bring out a crowd. And that's a testament to you know, your character, and how deeply entrenched in the San Francisco scene you are, you know, you're a part of this community deeply. So I just wanted to give that shout out too that I really appreciate that there's nothing really hidden, you know. I'm a Virgo, so I hide things. That's my, that's my kink.

Justin Hall: Virgo kink, I love that. I'm an Aquarius, so everything is just like splashed about. But thank you, you too, made me really verklempt about that was really sweet. But I would I guess some, some thoughts. When I first arrived in San Francisco, I landed in Valencia Street in the Mission, which is where I still live. And I've been here for 27 years, 28 years, and it was the epicenter of dyke culture, right? It was like, you know, lesbian, ground zero. And I moved to Lexington, Lexington, the Lexington Club or Osento baths, The Bearded Lady Cafe, or The Litter Box, it was just an incredible time to be in San Francisco. And I landed with, you know, basically a bunch of women, an apartment with a bunch of women, I was known as the boy and I was like, I have a name. But then I like go-go danced for like dyke punk bands. And like, I mean, that sort of expression of sexuality and gender was also incredibly important to me. And it's also part of the, the fabric of San Francisco. And then there's an incredible trans community here as well, which is really wonderful. And I feel like bisexual people are also sort of given more credence and respect here than in most places. 

Myisha Battle: I agree. 

Justin Hall: So the whole panoply of kind of, queer panoply, and of course, it affects, you know, straight cis people, too, right? They, they also have a lot more freedoms here. So it all sort of is in synergy. In terms of so it's funny that you should mention about I mean, I am the chair of this program in California College of the Arts, and I keep on waiting to get fired.

Myisha Battle: I wonder what you thought about that, if you're just like, I'm just gonna see how long I can do this? Or if if you were like, I got the job, like, I can do the job. So deal with it.

Justin Hall: Well, I also feel like what does it take to get fired in an art school in San Francisco? I mean, you know, I mean, don't get me wrong, there's plenty of like, actually bad things I get, you know, which I don't do, obviously, but I think of myself as a good person. But, but you know, things like being kinky is not gonna get you fired here. 

Myisha Battle: Right? Which I love.

Justin Hall: Which I love, right? And I even so I used to be a porn actor. And I'm making comics about that, and, you know, I really kept that more secret initially, and then I realized that at some point this sort of gave me street cred for my school. And I do I come in also, I did a porn series called an erotic comic series called "Hard to Swallow" with Dave Davenport. And I, at some point in my during my course, that I teach and for the incoming cohort, comics history, I come in with a big stack of porn comics and sort of slam it on the table. And I'd say y'all should make pornography at some point in your career because sex, and sexuality, and desire are one of the great represent one of the great profundities of the human existence, and the great mysteries of life, and they're up there with birth and death, and like all these really important things, and we should be making great art about them. And the problem. And also if you're a great person, a woman person of color, you should never let someone else colonize your sexual experience. You should be making your own porn, and you should do it authentically and people will love you for it. You'll make the world a better place. The problem is not with porn. It's with bad porn. 

Myisha Battle: Oof, bringing you back for that episode. Oh, boy. Um, you know, I want to get us back to, to like the practical nuts and bolts so to speak of kinky sex.

Justin Hall: Really you said nuts and bolts?

Myisha Battle: I yeah, I had to. Whips and chains of kinky sex. Have you ever not had sex with someone because they were into something really specific that you weren't into?

Justin Hall: That's interesting. Um, I'm really good at finding common ground, I think of myself as a good communicator. So like, I did have this one, I actually made a comic about this one, one incident if you want to hear about this, yeah. Okay, so, so I was at The Hole in the Wall, a bar, and there was another man with me. I started chatting with him and then this third guy came up and he was like, oh, you guys are both hot, let's go back to my place for a threeway and we're like, okay, so we all went back to his place. And he had this like little Pomeranian sort of yapping at him. And he was really drunk, and he passed out right away. And then the dog was like, really excited about that and kept on like, licking the guy's feet, and then his legs and all the way up to his crotch and getting in. And every once in a while the guy would sort of wake, like half wake up and be like, 'oh, no, Fluffy go away,' pass out and Fluffy would stop for a moment. He'd pass out again and Fluffy would be like right back at it. So like clearly this has happened before. So the other guy and I are just sort of like we've been fooling around a little bit and we're sort of looking at watching this transpire. And then I noticed the guy keeps on like tugging on my balls, like really tugging on my balls. And, I'm like ‘you know, actually ow like, that's actually not, not that into, you know, ball torture so, can you stop that?’ He was like, well, that's actually a problem for me, because what I want to do is, I want to stuff your balls into your own butt. I was like well, I don't think it's, it's really gonna stretch out that way.

Myisha Battle: My jaw. I have to pick it up. Okay.

Justin Hall: So I was like, well, that's not really my thing. Can we do something else? Can I suck your dick or whatever? It was like, 'no, that's actually really all I'm into.' Ok alright so so we're sort of stymied there and the other guy that's basically passed out at this point, and the dog is doing whatever. So I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna sort of back out of this whole situation. 

Myisha Battle: It's a lot!

Justin Hall: And the guy, the ball tugger you know saw me to the door, and I was like, 'you should leave too, right? You don't know this guy, and you're just he's passed out.' He was like, 'well, I'm just gonna wait a little bit longer.' And I was like, gosh, should I even leave like is this, but like, it's like, two, three in the morning, like I just gotta go home. So I go home. And then the next day, I actually saw the guy who had passed out on the BART, and he was on the station. I was in the car. And I'd never seen him before since, right? So and I saw him and I was like, 'Oh, my god, you! You're okay!' And he kinda looked at me. And I was like, and I was like 'yeah, last night, the guy with the balls and the dog, your dog and like, I want to make sure you're okay.' And he kind of looked at me like I was insane, and then the doors shut. The BART door. And then I just took off and I was like, oh, he didn't recognize me at all. He didn't remember me.

Myisha Battle: Oh man you know, and this is also like, a, it's a great, it's a great story. And it's also a great story about how the city is like, I always call it like a big little city. It's like, what are the fucking odds? 

Justin Hall: Absolutely. 

Myisha Battle: Like Jesus, okay!

Justin Hall: So to bring it back to your question. I'll say that yeah, the ball, the ball tug, balls into the butt hole? Like I'm, I'm very proud of this guy for like manifesting. You know he's very clear about his what his kink was, but I just wasn't there for it.

Myisha Battle: I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, I would, I would have been in the same boat if I had balls. Well, you mentioned that you are a good communicator. And I would argue that that person probably needed to give you a heads up like before anything happened. Like, hey, like, this is the thing I'm into, are you into this? Rather than just, like aggressively start yanking to see what he could get away with, but you know, people are people. What are what are some of your general tips for being like a better sexual communicator, whether that's about kink, or just about desires in general?

Justin Hall: I think a lot of it is I mean, there's obviously all of the verbal components, right, which you've mentioned, like having conversations about things. Um, but there's also a lot of nonverbal stuff that you gotta like, just pay attention to as an empathetic person, right? Just like if you notice someone's body language starting to freeze up or tense up or like, do something just pay attention, you know, slow it down, stop, stop the scene, you know, are you okay? Are you doing okay? You can, you can feel people's reactions physically. You can see it in their bodies. 

Myisha Battle: Yeah, I agree. And I think that you are better able to do that when you're not on substances, when you're like in the moment and in your body, which is like you know, a lot of times when we're having sex, you know, we're we're numbed out to a certain degree or like not paying attention. But I do think that these are things that you can cultivate, regardless of your state of mind, I think to be an empathetic person noticing, oh, something's changed. I gotta, I gotta pull back here for a moment and check in. That's, that's great advice.

Justin Hall: Yeah, even I mean, you know, a lot of people have some sort of altered state that they combined with sex, and I do as well at times. And but you can still have good communication, even through that. I mean, obviously, if it's one thing if someone's like, completely blotto, but don't, don't go there, because it's a it's not gonna be good sex, all right.

Myisha Battle: 100 percent.

Justin Hall: But if you're doing a little bit of altered states to like, enjoy the sex more, to lower inhibitions a little bit, or whatever it may be, um just sort of adjust your communication style to that, right? Pay a little bit more attention, give things a little bit more time.

Myisha Battle: Fully, fully agreeing. All right. Before we go, I want to play a little game. And I'm calling it ‘Kinky or Not Kinky.’ So you earlier I think, touched on the fact that, you know, you have a pretty, maybe skewed view of what's kinky having been in the San Francisco sex scene for a while. But then there are a lot of people I want to address the like, the kind of like stuff that we think of as sort of meh, that could be kinky based on the definition that we've been exploring here. So or also, like, what the what the culture says to us is kinky.

Justin Hall: Well, can I also, look you mentioned procreative sex, right? 

Myisha Battle: Yea. 

Justin Hall: My entire existence is non procreative sex. Right. So, so I think just by that definition, I'm sort of in the kink realm automatically.

Myisha Battle: Right, right. And I can speak more on that, because according to the DSM, you know, homosexuality was a paraphilia for ages. So we as human beings have decided on these these norms and non norms and put people in these boxes and something that I really wanted this conversation to eliminate, and I hope that it did, is that like, these distinctions aren't helpful if they go against what you innately are drawn towards and where you derive your pleasure. So calling something kinky or not kinky I mean, this this is a little bit a tongue in cheek playful, you know, fuck you to the distinctions themselves. But here we go: blindfolds.

Justin Hall: Oh I think they can be done. Okay. Contextual as well. Like I think you can do a whole scene around a blindfold that can be quite kinky, but just blindfolds is sort of a normal part of play. Absolutely not kinky. Yeah, every one once in a while, you just sort of like hey, can I? You know, can... Every once in a while I'll be I'll be fucking around and I'll be like, 'Can you throw a blindfold on me and just want to like, lay back and see what you do?" and, or I'll put a blindfold on someone else. Absolutely.

Myisha Battle: But you know, there's all these like, you know, porn stores that have like the kink kit that comes with the blindfold and the handcuffs. So that's why I was like, listen, like how kinky is this?

Justin Hall: Yeah, I mean, again, like if, yeah, you can make a whole scene out of it. 

Myisha Battle: Yeah.

Justin Hall: You know, but you know, to tie the person up and you do the whole, you know, but just throwing a blindfold on in the middle of a sex scene that's not kinky. 

Myisha Battle: Go for it, kids. 

Justin Hall: That's hard. It's french vanilla. 

Myisha Battle: Try it. Feel like it! 

Justin Hall:  A la mode.

Myisha Battle: Okay, next one is smelling your partner all over, especially their armpits and genitals.

Justin Hall: Oh, that's just normative. That's not even, oh my goodness. Do people not do that? Oh my gosh. Oh, that makes me sort of sad that some people would not do that. Goodness, yeah, that's not yeah, not even. 

Myisha Battle: I have so many clients who were like I'm grossed out by my own smell, my partner's smell, yeah, yeah. And I think it is that thing that we get fed that's about being clean and it takes us away from that primal need to connect through our senses you know, and the pheromones are most prominent in our armpits smell and our genitals for attract for attraction.

Justin Hall: Yeah, that's why I have a beard.

Myisha Battle: Oh flavor savor!

Justin Hall: I know thank you! Oh my goodness, that's just shocking. I mean, don't get me wrong there. There are you know. I have run into guys where their scent is less attractive to me than others I mean absolutely. And there's also you know, some people can get you can get really ripe in the ways that are not exciting for me but, but yeah, basic like yea. And actually deodorant? How dare you! How dare you! You know, I've run into guys that with deodorant on at like The Eagle or something like that. And there's The Eagle Beer Bust, everybody's like hanging out. It's really a great daytime gathering and it's it's sort of aggressive and offensive to wear deodorant because then like, if someone's gonna stick their face in your armpit and like you get, they're gonna get alll greasy like that's disgusting.

Myisha Battle: Oh, I see what you're saying. It's more of a logistical thing. But like a scent, like, what if, if it's a natural scent? Like today, I put on like a little sage spray. I was like, you know, just a little freshener.

Justin Hall: But if you're gonna go into like a kinky space, that will be different, right? I mean, in some places, The Eagle is sort of it's social. It's not like sex doesn't happen there, but it's still very sexual. 

Myisha Battle: Yeah. 

Justin Hall: People are going to be licking each others armpits as a way of saying, hello. That's sort of the San Francisco hello.

Myisha Battle: I know, I love it. I think it's great. Um, cosplay.

Justin Hall: That strikes me as more kinky, to be perfectly honest, because a lot of that is because I'm lazy. I love putting on a costume. I just, I just officiated a wedding in a Wonder Woman costume 

Myisha Battle: I saw that!

Justin Hall: Yeah, I'm very, I was very happy with that. But, but the idea of using that with sex is not my thing. So because it's not my thing, I think of it as kinky, which, you know, is sort of ridiculous, I suppose. But you know to pull back from that a little bit, I mean, any of the kinds of harnesses and you know, jockstraps and whatever that sort of is so common in sort of gay, you know, dance party, sex, sex, sexual space, or whatever. Those would be considered costumey as well to certain people.

Myisha Battle: Mhm, but we also have like people now who are just like wanting to feel closer to the Marvel Universe, you know, and they're just like, dressing up. And I'm like, how, what kind of kinky things are you getting to after the con? You know what I mean?

Justin Hall: Absolutely and it's definitely generating some juices. There's no question.

Myisha Battle: Right?! 

Justin Hall: Yeah, absolutely. And for that, that makes perfect sense to me. 

Myisha Battle: Yeah. 

Justin Hall: I saw a guy a while ago at a party in an Omni-Man outfit. Omni-Man is like the hot dad from the "Invincible" show. Super hot. Super, super dad, super dad. And bad guy, but it makes him even hotter. But you know that definitely, it was like, oh, this is really sexy. But I am definitely one of those people who I like naked sex. You know?

Myisha Battle: Au naturale. 

Justin Hall: Yeah, I just feel like, you know, outfits get in the way. 

Myisha Battle: Yeah, I hear you.

Justin Hall: Clothing of any kind really gets in the way.

Myisha Battle: I hear you. Next one up: wrestling or play fighting as foreplay.

Justin Hall: Yeah, let's yeah. I do know guys who are into it as a kink. I have a friend who came out very late. I think it was in his 30s or something, and all he knew was that he was really, really, really, really into wrestling, you know, for years. So and it to this day, he's like all about singlets. He'll dress he dressed me up in singlets. One time, I went over to play with him and he dressed me in singlets and sort of got really into it. It's very sexy. I think of it as sort of kinky, but he was like seeing how my body fit in the singlet and sort of touching in different places. And like, you know, it was cool. Again, it's the feedback loop for me, I was solely turned on by his being turned on. So he's very much turned on by wrestling. And there's all that sort of the jobber thing where you sort of, a jobber is someone who deliberately loses at wrestling in order to then be dominated. 

Myisha Battle: Right.

Justin Hall: So again, back to that power dynamic. Domination submission. And then if the you know, the wrestler gets fucked at the end of it because he's lost the match. I mean, that's, that's pretty hot.

Myisha Battle: Yeah, I like that. I have had clients who have expressed this, I mean, they would think of themselves as vanilla, but were kind of frustrated by the sex they wanted to have with someone because it wasn't as physical as they wanted it, you know, it was. And so there is this kink that I learned through working with clients that's called Primal, you know, people who are very into that physical like, I want to feel your body I want to, like feel how strong you are, but I also want you to feel my strength and have that tussling tension, you know, moment, either before sex or during sex. So. 

Justin Hall: I've never heard that term and that makes a lot more sense to me. I mean, I think like putting on a wrestling gear, putting on a wrestling gear and then jumping into a ring and doing that as a whole scenario. This will seem like that seems kinky to me as a prelude to sex but if you're just like grabbing someone and like throwing them around, and like, you know, doing a little bit of impact play, like punching each other's chests and stuff like that, and like, tried to squeeze each other and like wrestle each other a little bit. That's that's just doesn't seem kinky at all to me.

Myisha Battle: Okay. All right. Sucking toes.

Justin Hall: Oh, I just had a guy who wanted to do that to me, and he was actually worried, he didn't want, he told me later that he wanted to do that and he was worried about that I would be offended or be turned off because he was into it. I was like oh, my gosh, you should have absolutely started sucking my toes. Aww, you know, it made me feel aww.

Myisha Battle: You're accommodating. Yeah. 

Justin Hall: Absolutely. Again, the feedback loop would have been wonderful. So next time we see each other we will, he will absolutely be sucking my toes. 

Myisha Battle: Amazing. Okay, and threesomes.

Justin Hall: Oh my god, that's not even. That's I mean come on.

Myisha Battle: Yesterday's news. 

Justin Hall: I mean it's yeah come on.

Myisha Battle: Okay, you heard it first everyone. That, you know, the things that you think are kinky and scary listen… Justin just considers that a Saturday afternoon.

Justin Hall: Tuesday, even a Tuesday afternoon!

Myisha Battle: I want to thank you so much for coming on the show, giving your time, and uh yeah even sharing a little emotional moment with me I really appreciate it. And uh I yeah, finally we should have you back to talk about so much more. So much more.

Justin Hall: Anytime. This is such a pleasure. It's such an honor and a privilege I really appreciate it. And I get to be your sexy sixth!

Myisha Battle: That's right! The first and the sixth. 

Justin Hall: Yeah, right. Exactly. 

Myisha Battle: Where would you like to be found on the internet or in real life?

Justin Hall: On the internet I have a website Justin Hall Awesome Comics dot com. So feel free to check me out there. It is not particularly well kept up but but I am there. And then also on Instagram I'm at Justin Hall Comics. So and then otherwise in that I'm just sort of lurking around San Francisco doing comics events here and abroad. And then also just lurking around the random bars I suppose.

Myisha Battle: Smelling armpits.

Justin Hall: Smelling armpits in the random bars! Oh my goodness gracious. Okay.

Myisha Battle: Oh, thank you so much! 

Justin Hall: Thank you.

[CREDITS]

Myisha Battle: "How's Your Sex Life?" is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. Our engineer is Nick Lampone. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, to Nathalie Hill, Connie Alvarez, Meggan Ellingboe, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro. And last but not least, a huge thanks to our voice actor Marque Greene.