Write your own love story full transcript

Myisha Battle: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of KCRW's "How's Your Sex Life?" I'm Myisha Battle. And I am here today with Damona Hoffman. Damona is a dating coach and she hosts the stellar Dates & Mates podcast. She also has a new book coming out next month called "F the Fairy Tale: Rewrite the Dating Myths and Live Your Own Love Story." Thank you so much for being here.

Damona Hoffman: Thank you for having me. It's good to talk to you again.

Myisha: Oh, my pleasure. I know, speaking with you on Dates & Mates was so fun. And that was just earlier this year. It feels like a long, long time ago, but I think that was just back in February or March. So yeah.

Damona: When your book came out! Now the tables are turned!

Myisha: Now the tables have turned and I'm so excited for you. We'd actually planned to do this last week, but I'm so glad that we are finally here together to make this happen. So before we dig in, I just have one question for you. 

Damona: Hit me. 

Myisha: How's your sex life?

Damona: (Laughter) A lady never kisses and tells, right?

Myisha: Okay! Fair enough! Fair enough.

Damona: I'll just say this, I've been happily married for 16 years. And anything else I say will make my husband blush. But it's going okay!

Myisha: We love a blushing husband moment. So I hope he feels that from you, you know with with the things that have gone unsaid, he is still standing proudly. Amazing. Well, let's let's get started. As you know, we are an advice podcast so we're here to serve some advice and you are no stranger to that. So here's the first question. 

Question 1: I am a 56 year old female. Should I lie about my age on dating apps? Do you have strong feelings about lying about one's age when presenting yourself for dating?

Damona: Well, look, Myisha, I've been coaching people on online dating and offline dating for over 17 years now. And this is actually one of the questions that I have continually gotten throughout all of those years. Should I lie? And I'm going to respond to this with a question for your listener. How would you feel starting a relationship on a lie? And if that makes you feel the least bit uncomfortable, I just wonder if it's smart for you to use your age strategically in that way to hook a man, or a woman, or you know, whatever you're looking for. I do find that there are real challenges with dating apps. And particularly if you're over 40, over 50 over 60. And I've worked with clients of all ages, there are certain drop offs of when people will search their particular age range the same again and again and again. And so it does take a little bit more effort to search strategically when you're over 50. But if you put yourself in the right pool, like a dating app, for example, in OurTime, that is catering to daters in your particular age range, then you don't feel like you're having to become someone that you're not in order to feel attractive. So I would say I wouldn't do it, you choose your own adventure, but really use the strategic tools and strategically choose the dating app that's going to be best for you so that you can start your relationship off on the right foot. What do you think though?

Myisha: Yeah, no, I love that advice, because it's not super prescriptive, but it is offering some guidance and some guardrails based on your experience with clients who, you know, have been in a similar boat and have been questioning, "Okay, am I limiting my options, maybe by stating my true age?" You mentioned my book earlier and in the book I talk about putting your truths out there. And I think one of the truths that we have is is our age. And in the book, I say you are the exact right age, you know, whether you're starting dating, super, you know, young-ish, or, you know, if you are dating, you know, later in life, I think you're the exact right age that you're supposed to be. But I also have the caveat of, you know, the trappings of the dating apps, you know, you mentioned OurTime, which is an app specifically for folks 50 and over, if I'm not mistaken, and I think that's a great option to have, you know, if you're looking for an older dating pool. I also think, though, that sometimes people don't, quote unquote, feel their age, and can kind of feel like well, if people are searching up to 50, or even up to 55, and I'm 56, am I going to miss out on those people who are, you know, younger than me who I would be attracted to etcetera? And so, you know, I would even say like, if your moral compass is okay, I think it's in my best interest to fudge the number a little bit so that I am not left out of these, you know, kind of limited search parameters, maybe consider being upfront immediately. That that would be my my one caveat is like, if you're gonna try to game the system a bit, then you know, being honest and coming clean with this information, maybe even before you meet, if you you know, are finding that you're connecting with someone really well and you're like, okay, I want to I want to meet this person. Just fess up before you get found out.

Damona: Yeah, I agree with that, if you are going to go that route of fudging it strategically to be more visible. I will say though, I hear from both men, from women, from folks of all genders, that this idea of "I'm this age, but I don't feel my age," like I rarely do I talk to someone that's like, I'm 56, I feel 56 I want to date someone that is older, like we just don't hear it because our society is so is so addicted to youth and, and we're taking on all of these beliefs that really aren't even ours to carry. So also just embracing, you're the age that you are, as you said, You're the perfect age right now. And you can really get lost in this dating app math of you know, whether it's age, or I hear it a lot around height, "well I'm five foot nine and if I'm wearing heels, then he has to be six foot two," and you know, or if it's around how much money someone makes, we can get really lost in the dating app math. Yeah. And really, we lose a lot of dating opportunities and matches in the midst of doing those computations.

Myisha: Mm hmm. I'm guessing you cover this in your book? 

Damona: Oh, sure. A lot of this, and I cover a lot of the common myths. We are all subject to these stories, these fairy tales, the books called F the Fairy Tale, we we've been reading fairy tales, we've been watching rom-coms. We have our parental expectations, our societal pressures. And there are so many voices in our head that tell us what love is supposed to look like. And one thing I really love about your book, and the advice that you give, that really dovetails with what I'm talking about today is we get to write our own love stories, we get to do it our own way. And that's a privilege. We haven't always had that ability. And of course, not everyone everywhere in the in the world has that ability. But if you are listening to this right now, and you do that is such, that is such a privilege to embrace and to look at as a positive about the dating scene today. 

Myisha: Fully. Yes, thank you for that. I was just thinking as you were speaking that, in my experience working with clients, I've noticed that straight cis women are more susceptible to the fairy tale myths. Do you find that in your practice? Or do you think that like, you know, there's something about the fairy tale that gets packaged specifically for straight sis women? 

Damona: Hmm, that's a great question. I, I do find that it is a I work predominantly with straight cis women. I think they're feeling the most frustration about dating today. And I do feel like, look, the stories have been written for straight cis women and for people that don't fit into the boxes that we've all been asked to check, those stories probably have never rung true, ever. So it's easier to reject a story that never you could never really place yourself as the protagonist of.

Myisha: That makes a lot of sense. Yes. So we're here to reject the story, people.

Damona: F the fairy tale y'all. 

Myisha: F it! We're going to dig into our last two questions. Damona will you read this first one?

Damona: Oh, this is a juicy one Myisha. This person says… 

Question 2: I am in a polyamorous relationship where my partner and I started dating when they identified as asexual. They have since learned that they are more demisexual. My sexual attraction toward them dwindles while theirs increases. I love them and want to keep them in my life. And I'm wondering how to approach the subject. Does a partnered relationship necessarily have to be rooted in some form of sexual relationship? 

Myisha: Mm hmm. So there's a lot here. And there's a little for for both of us in this question.

Damona: Do we need to do like a definition, Myisha, of all the terms here?

Myisha: Yeah, I was just about to ask you. Are you familiar with demisexuality? 

Damona: I want to know more. 

Myisha: Okay, okay, well, I've pulled up the definition here that I'm just going to read to you. So demisexuality is a sexual orientation in which an individual does not experience primary sexual attraction, the type of attraction that is based on immediate observable characteristics such as appearance or smell, and is experienced immediately after a first encounter. So that means they don't really get that like, ooh, you know, they see people. For them, this may develop over time as they get to know someone.  Sometimes people think demisexuality is okay, I need an emotional connection. The more emotionally connected I feel with someone, the stronger my sexual connection feels and grows. And that's sparking something for me, downstairs.

Damona: Myisha, how does that differ from asexual? 

Myisha: Oh, great question! So asexual is a spectrum. Demisexuality could fall under the asexual spectrum for sure. But an asexual person may feel a little to no sexual attraction throughout the course of their relationship. Or they may identify as maybe greysexual, where they get sexual interest sparked under certain circumstances, but they're very limited circumstances. So it might be for instance, like only certain sexual partners, or only certain partners that they've had historically, or maybe only like with self. So it's not like a primary drive for relationship building. And I think that kind of sums up my response to this person, which is, you know, no, I don't I don't think that relationships necessarily have to be rooted in some form of sexual relationship. People partner and get married for a lot of different reasons, and have throughout time. So you know, of course, it can be a focus. They are polyamorous, so that gives them the opportunity to explore different types of relationships with other people. And, you know, the primary focus for this question asker, might be to seek out people with whom they can be sexual with. I think the problem here is that the longer they're in this relationship with their partner, who's now realizing they're demisexual is like, that partner wants the sexual component to grow, while the question asker is not as interested in that, and I think that could change with time as well. What do you think? 

Damona: Certainly, it can change with time, but it's also important, just as you mentioned, to make sure that both partners are getting their needs met, and they're evolving with one another. And that's, that's the big challenge in ongoing relationships is that you're, you're not a static human, you're continuing to change your interests, your your sexual preferences, your your turns on your turn offs, you know, all of these all of these elements of the relationship, I see it on a continuum. And you have to be constantly in communication with your partner, especially if you're in a polyamorous relationship, where there might be not just the dynamic between the two of you to consider, but suddenly now there's a third dynamic, and there's maybe a fourth dynamic and then that is also changing. It does create the playground for a lot of exploration and a lot of communication. But in F the Fairy Tale, one of the myths that I deconstruct is the soulmate myth. And this idea that, you know, we're these half souls that we're looking for our ideal partner, and we get so many we have different ideas about what that looks like. And even just the definition, if you go back to Greek mythology, the definition of, of a soulmate or in in Plato's time, the, the the whole definition of love and platonic love. It's really a love that is driven by the pursuit of truth. It's a love that transcends, as this listener's letter states, it transcends just a sexual connection and chemistry. It's deeper than that. And that is the kind of connection that I really encourage my clients and my Dates & Mates listeners to pursue and sometimes a deep sexual connection is a part of that. But sometimes, it's actually a deeper connection on another level.

Myisha: Yeah, you know, it really does sound like there's a good foundation of communication in this partnership. I mean, you know, to go from I'm I'm asexual, you know, just so you know, to like, I'm demisexual and things are changing for me. I think they they do seem to have like a good foundation. And that of course, with polyamory is super important too, to be navigating multiple relationships all at once. You know, this, this question asker is asking for a little guidance on how to approach the subject of, well, my my attraction is kind of dwindling, as yours is increasing. And I think, you know, as with a lot of things in relationships, sometimes you just have to have the hard conversation. And as you mentioned, that that's in pursuit of truth, you know, truth for oneself, truth for, you know, the other person to understand about you, and to to digest and make decisions about whether or not this is a relationship that they want to continue with as well.

Damona: Yeah, that pursuit of truth will will definitely keep you in, as I say, a relationship growth mindset. And so many times whether we're dating or in a relationship, we become afraid of the truth of that, that real answer. So we'll stay in situations sometimes that are not right, we'll stay in that space of not knowing because it's easier than hearing the thing we don't want to hear. But on the flip side of that, sometimes asking the question, the brave question, as you were just saying, asking the brave question gets you the brave and truthful response. And sometimes that's actually even better than you could have imagined if you kept that question locked inside.

Myisha: I fully agree. Okay, so now you have your, your marching orders to, to have this conversation and to be open with your truth, and to hopefully, you know, have this actually take the relationship to a potentially deeper emotional place that could be really beneficial for both of you. Well, this is a great time to take a quick break. But when we come back, we have one more question to tackle. And if you've been listening and want to send in your question, drop us an email at sex life at kcrw dot org.

[BREAK] 

And we're back. We're going to tackle our last question. I'll go ahead and read this one. 

Question 3: What are the pros and cons of changing or not changing your last name when getting remarried as a widow?

Damona: Wow. I have strong feelings about the name change.

Myisha: Okay, let's start there because I feel like this is a this is a myth. This is a myth territory question.

Damona: Well, it's a myth and I'll share my own story of I've changed my name now twice. And I've only been married once. So do the math there. But I originally, it was so hard for me to take on my husband's last name, because there was really this loss of identity that I experienced, in everything I built as a single person sort of being wiped away, to take on the name of someone else, and to join into union with them. And while I was 100 percent on board with the union part, I really grappled with this idea of losing a part of myself. I ended up hyphenating my name, which was a straight up disaster, like any kind of legal documents or putting your name in any forms, I realized very quickly I had made a mistake. And then ultimately, when we had children together, I wanted us to all have a family name. And I, at that point in the continuum of the relationship was ready to take on my husband's last name, because I felt like we had built enough of an identity together, that it wasn't walking away from someone that I used to be, it was continuing to be the person I was becoming. So it's very interesting in the context of this question that this person is asking about getting remarried as a widow. When we overlay the loss of identity and the loss of a life that came before? That is that is so weighted, when you have lost a great love of your life. And it may feel like I'm taking on somebody else's name. And therefore does that mean I am erasing the memory of the person that I once loved? And I as you picked up I don't tend to give prescriptive advice. I tend to take questions and then ask more questions, but yeah, if that, yeah, if that aligns with this person, and they feel like the challenge of take, they feel like the experience of taking on the new name, erases the memory of the old name, is there a way that they could reframe that? And also, we have to consider the new partner, right? What what, how are? What are their feelings about the old name existing in the new relationship? What are your thoughts?

Myisha: My first thought, because I have never been married, I've never had a name change, but I am the daughter of divorced parents, where my mother decided to keep her last name, her married last name and not go back to her maiden name, because she wanted that direct link to her children. She wanted us to all have the same last name. And so that's another thing that I can think of as a factor if this person, you know, has children, and wants to honor the memory of that family that they created, I can fully understand why that would be a mark in the pro side of keeping one's name. And also, you know, could be a way of describing to the future partner why that would be important to them. So, you know, I think there are a lot of questions here for this person to ask themselves before making that call. And I think it is so personal. And the reason, you know, the reason should come from you, right? Like, the reason should not be I'm getting married again, and therefore I must do this, or it's, it's expected of me and so I should. The reason for doing it should be, you know, I am ready to maybe embark on this new chapter of my life. And symbolically changing my name feels like the way to access that. But also, you know, fully preparing yourself for the grief that might come up for that change.

Damona: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't recommend doing it another two times. When you're ready to make the change, if you are going to make a change, do it mindfully. 

Myisha: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, a few questions to, to consider as you're mulling over this, but I think both you and I are on the same page. We can't tell you what to do, but we can definitely lay out some of the pros and cons. And I think... 

Damona: We see your question, and we raise you another three questions.

Myisha: I think that's what makes good coaches, honestly, good questions, you know. This has been a joy, but before we go, before I let you go, I wanted to bring up that, you know, we're coming up on this new year 2024. It's just right around the corner. And Bumble recently put out their list of dating trends to expect in 2024. Have you seen this? 

Damona: Oh, yes. 

Myisha: Okay. Okay, great. So this will not be a complete surprise to you. I'm excited to kind of dig into a few of them. This is based on a survey of over 20,000 daters on their app. And just so you know, if there are any people who aren't familiar with Bumble, Bumble is the dating app where women make the first move, that's kind of their tagline. So I do think a lot of the the data points that I'm pulling out here, specifically kind of like, female centered, let's, let's take a look and see. The first one is that people are caring less about the age of their potential partners. So that kind of ties into our first question, right? So the article that they released says for two in three, or 63 percent of those surveyed, age is not a defining factor when dating with more than half or 59 percent of women respondents saying they're now more open to dating someone younger. What are your thoughts on that? Do you see that trend in your work?

Damona: I do see that trend and I'm thrilled about it, because I have been talking to daters for so long about expanding their parameters. And just being open. Like even in my my own experience. My husband and I are the same age. When I was dating, I don't know why Myisha, I had this idea that the person I was going to be with had to be one year to 10 years older. 

Myisha: Wow. 

Damona: Now I don't know why. There's no, there's no science behind this. I just had it in my head. I was very mature. I needed to date someone older. He almost didn't write to me because he thought that he was going to I was going to diss him. But I saw I took one look at his profile and I was like, this the guy. Turns out I was dating somebody at the same time very casually, of course... 

Myisha: It happens!

Damona: But, but I was dating somebody else who was 10 years older. And my husband was so much more mature than he was, I had attached all this meaning to age that didn't really exist. And I almost missed the greatest love of my life, because of that attachment to age. So I love this data from from Bumble. And I do think particularly in this, in this space, we're in where we're even examining age like, The Golden Bachelor wouldn't have existed, I don't believe couldn't have existed, even five years ago. We were not ready for it like as, as the TV viewing audience, we were not ready for it. But now that it has been brought to the consciousness, and it was such a huge, massive success, a lot of people are redefining their ideas around sexiness or ideas around age and dating, and I'm here for all of it.

Myisha: I am too. I'll be watching the wedding. I am there. 

Damona: Yes, I do love a good reality TV love story. 

Myisha: Me too. Me too. The second bullet point that I wanted to bring up is that daters are looking to be matched with people who not only care about social and political causes, but who also actively participate. And so the article says one in four people surveyed on Bumble say it's key that their partner actively engages with politics and social causes, and that it even makes them more attractive. So this is kind of going against, I think, a myth that we have that you don't talk about politics right off the bat, you know, you don't want to be too controversial, or, you know, put too much out there about, you know, your beliefs. So what do you think about this one?

Damona: This was really interesting. I used to say, don't talk about politics on the first date. And it was years ago, maybe the sixth or seventh thing that someone might say to me that they were looking for that was important to them a political match. Now, it's number one or number two, and I even wrote a story about it in F the Fairy Tale, and I do see, we're using politics now as a proxy. So we're just trying to shortcut everything, there's so many options out there, both the number of dating apps and the number of ways to meet people, and then the number of matches that you have available. We're all looking for ways to sort so we think, "well, if we're politically aligned, then I can shortcut all of that and cut to the good stuff." But you and I both know, there really aren't shortcuts when it comes to identifying someone's values. And so I think the nuance here is in aligning with specific values or specific beliefs, which I have definitely seen, when we look at the conversation around women's health, conversation around gun violence, the conversation around so many issues that are at the forefront I am now seeing that be brought to the forefront of people's dating decisions.

Myisha: Yeah, same. I mean, I identify as a feminist sex and dating coach. And so you know, people who, who gravitate towards me are also going to have that kind of, you know, political lens and look at things that way. So, of course, I have clients who are very, you know, strong advocates of women's right to choose and, you know, they cannot be trifled with, you know, when it comes to their dating prospects, not understanding that, and I think just, you know, on a practical level to people want to know that someone is not just going to talk the talk, but they're really going to walk the walk, they're going to vote their, their conscience, they're going to vote their values, they're going to donate to causes when there's like, an immediate need for action, they're not going to have these awkward conversations of like, "Why are you giving money to the ACLU?" You know, like, these are things that could happen in a partnership, right, where it's like, "oh, that's frivolous, why are you?" you know, and then there's a real breakdown in, in the relationship, because it's like, well, you really don't see why this is important. Or you don't know why we should be supporting people doing drag, like, do I have to explain this to you? You know, so, um, yeah, I think that it's interesting that this is showing up because it does sort of reflect where we are in this country, politically too, you know, it's, it's, I think it's harder to find that common ground just based on labels. People really want to feel like, you know, do you understand why I might be doing these things and taking these actions and how you might support me if I want to do these things, right. That's important. 

Damona: Yeah, it's very important. And just you brought up how we have shifted in just the, the way that we talk about these issues and how we are front loading it. With social media, we, we have to bring social media into the conversation, I believe, because we are now being so sort, so sort of siloed into our own belief systems. And it used to be that within dating, that was a space where you could hear alternative points of view, meet people who might be different. And I love that discovery process of, you know, you might not see this person at a cocktail party, but maybe on a dating app, you might meet someone of a different political, political belief system that you could engage with. And if they're not your person, maybe not marry but learn something from and we are becoming less and less willing to do that in all spaces. So it was really interesting to see it show up in the Bumble data that people are doing it also in dating, and we can't just make excuses like, oh, well, he's a good smile and a cute, but if he doesn't believe in a woman's right to choose, it's a non starter. 

Myisha: Yeah, yeah. Well, we have one last point that I find really interesting, and definitely calls upon some myth busting here on our part. People are rejecting traditional relationship goals, like marriage, only one in five or 23 percent of women surveyed on Bumble are seeking marriage, whereas nearly three quarters 72 percent, are looking for long term relationships. So there's that distinction between, you know, marriage is the goal, versus I want a long term partner. What do you think?

Damona: Well, this was the most aligned piece of data for me in the entire Bumble study, because I have been noticing this trend among the daters that I coach and my Dates & Mates listeners that a lot of people are writing in about, first of all, just non traditional relationship structures, and especially about questions like "do I have to get married?" Or "is something wrong with me if I'm not married by this age?" And we're grappling with that dissonance that comes from hearing those stories that we heard, as you know, young daters are, you know, in the families of origin that we were in, and what's actually happening in the dating world today, and these statistics and the census data shows that people are delaying marriage and choosing not to get married at higher and higher rates in society overall. And there are more single adults living in the US than ever before in history. I'll just quote out F the Fairy Tale, 126.9 million unmarried people, that's nearly half of the American adult population, that are living single, and I would say happily single in many of those cases without that pressure that every relationship has to have this end game of being married. 

Myisha: That's over the age of 18, yes? 

Damona: Yeah. Over the age of eighteen. 

Myisha: Whoa, whoa, oh, my goodness. Yeah. No, I mean, so much we could talk about here, right? We could talk about people feeling siloed, people not having that as an end goal, people feeling like, why would I want that the world is ending? So, you know, I think there's a lot of reasons that I would be so curious for a follow up study to learn more about, you know, the reasons why people are remaining, either single, you know, living solitarily, or, you know, choosing this non marriage route. I mean, I myself am not married and I'm partnered, so I fully get it. I like to say like my partner and I are kind of like marriage ambivalent, you know, we talk about it as like, oh, it'd be fun to have a party for our friends, but like, you know, with our friends and family, but I don't know, for us talk about political leanings, I think, me partnering with him I've actually been like, F the system, not just the fairy tale, but the whole system. And I think that like, in some ways, not being married is enacting some of our politics at home too.

Damona: Well, I'll say as somebody that has been happily married for 16 years, I to say, F the system, because I see how much pain it causes people. And I see how contorting ourselves into these little boxes and these beliefs that have been passed down to us, just doesn't fit. It's just not comfortable. And I really want people to feel empowered by the amount of choice that we have instead of crushed by the amount of choices that they have to make in dating. And ultimately it's Choose Your Own Adventure, you get to write your own love story. And maybe marriage is in it, maybe you want a LAT relationship, L-A-T relationships, they're on the rise, where people are partnered, but living apart. Living apart together is what it stands for and that is an option that really also did not exist even a couple of decades ago. So you get to write your own love story. And I think that's a good thing. And you know, me choosing marriage means that that was right for me, but whoever reads my book, whoever's listening to this podcast, and especially for you, you know, it's, it's not the right path for everyone. And that's a wonderful thing.

Myisha: It is, it is, well, I hope people, you know, avail themselves of, you know, the resources in your book, I think it's so valuable to break down. So many of these myths that taken all together, do you construct this fairy tale narrative that all of us, regardless of, you know, how we were raised, or you know, what messages we absorbed, like we're getting some of this fairy tale stuff it's coming in. So I'm just so glad that you are able to share your knowledge and wisdom with the world through F the Fairy Tale and your fantastic podcast. And yeah, where where can people find you either on the internet or in real life? I don't know if you're planning tours, right now. Or if you're doing anything live? Where can people find you?

Damona: Yeah, we are doing a few events so far in LA and New York. I work on the Drew Barrymore show, which shoots in New York, so I go back and forth. So you can catch me there, but you can find out all the info about the book, you can preorder the book, which it's going to be available, January 2, all of that is at F the Fairy Tale Book dot com. That's the letter F. And I'm on all the socials, you can find out where you can see me live at Damona Hoffman, and Dates & Mates like clockwork, every Tuesday for 11 years. And certainly, everyone should check out your episode because that was a big hit.

Myisha: Thank you. Yeah, no great podcast. I love your social content, as well. So folks, if you are dating, please follow Damona. She's got some good, she's got some good content there for you. And again, nothing prescriptive, just pointed questions, questions that we all should be asking ourselves and thoughts that I think a lot of us are having by ourselves. And it's so nice to know that like other people have the same thoughts, the same questions. So thank you again, for for all that you do and all that you put out into the world.

Damona: Thank you for your questions, Myisha and for the work that you do as well.

Myisha: Yay. And to our listeners, if you have a question that you want me to answer, just drop me an email at sex life at kcrw dot org. Next time, I'll be joined by Sam Sanders, one of the co-hosts of Vibe Check to help give some advice. See you next time. 

[CREDITS] 

Myisha: "How's Your Sex Life?" is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. Our engineer is Nick Lambpone. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Hope Brush, Nathalie Hill, Connie Alvarez, Megan Ellingboe, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro.