How’s your friend life? with Ann Friedman

Myisha Battle: I mean, I'm just thinking of all the times that an 'I miss you' has really gone a long way, in a friendship, no matter what's been happening. Again, recommendation for hard conversations!

Ann Friedman: I know.

Myisha: I think we're gonna have that a lot.

Ann: The running joke was that, like, our follow up to Big Friendship could be like a workbook where every page is just like ‘Talk about it! Have you talked about it? Have you talked about it?! Could you talk about it directly?’

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Myisha: Welcome back to KCRW's ‘How's Your Sex Life?,’ your sex and dating survival guide. I'm your host Myisha Battle. Normally we answer questions about romantic love on the podcast, but today, we're going to talk about the relationships in our life that are just as important: friendships. They can be just as rewarding and messy. I'm here with Ann Friedman. Hi, Ann!

Ann: Hi, Myisha.

Myisha: You have written, co-written a book about friendship. We are friends. You are a friend of the pod. I am a friend of your pod. There's just a lot of friendship love going on here.

Ann: Yeah, we are deep in community. [Laughter]

Myisha: Yeah! It's been, it's been a long time. Like we've been long distance friends for probably over a decade at this point.

Ann: Honestly, at least yeah.

Myisha: Yeah, it’s so crazy! And I just wanna say that the first book we mentioned was called Big Friendship and was co written with Aminatou Sow. Now you’re working on a solo book project about adulthood. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you’re working on?

Ann: Yeah, this new book is about adulthood and the modern milestones and markers of adulthood. And midlife is definitely a big part of that. It's a place, in kind of the adult timeline, where we don't have a lot of external markers. Like, you know, people don't associate maybe graduating from college or getting married with midlife, even though people do those things at that time. And so, the book is just really looking at the things that really usher us into a deeper maturity, and what role those milestones play in this century's adulthood.

Myisha: I do think it ties into friendship really nicely, because sometimes, friendships are not there for the duration of all of these life changes. And sometimes they are and that's really fucking fantastic.

Ann: Yeah, I'm so happy you're talking about, we are talking about friendship, in the context of your show. Specifically because, when we think about what's really important with adult relationships, all kinds of intimate relationships really add up to us growing as humans. And yes, romantic and sexual relationships are one, one option, two options, I guess. And friendship is another huge way that we all grow and mature and it's not unrelated to the kind of growth that happens in other types of intimacies.

Myisha: Yeah, so excited to have you answer these questions today with me. We usually ask people, how's your sex life, but I'm actually really curious about how your friend life is these days.

Ann: My friend life is great. It is sustained by recurring calendar events, voice messages, and long complaining rants over a drink or a coffee.

Myisha: Yes, we need all of the above.

Ann: That's right.

Myisha: Okay, well Anne, we asked our listeners to share their friendship dilemmas with us, you did the same with your audience. Thank you so much for that, because we got some really great questions, and we're gonna get to as many as we can. So let's get started. As a reminder, our questions are voiced by actors to keep everyone anonymous.

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Question 1: So a while back I started to feel frustrated that I seemed to be the one taking initiative to check in with friends and make plans. I stopped doing this entirely for a few months, mainly due to burnout and also to run an experiment, and now my calendar is completely empty. It turns out that I was the one reaching out to people, and if I don’t, I don't see anyone. These are people across many different friend groups. I know we like each other and it’s always meaningful when we connect, but what the fuck is up with this?

Ann: I feel very seen by this person. I am also an initiator, which is a term that we use in “Big Friendship” for a person who is really likely to be the one reaching out, organizing the group, actually putting something on the calendar. And it's interesting because it is both, as this person says they're feeling burnt out like it's a stress, it's like another thing to add to your task list to do that sort of organizing, but it's also quite a power position in my experience. You get to have your friends know each other often, which means they're more likely to want to come hang out at your house, you get to set the terms like hey, I've been wanting to see that movie, or I'm interested in learning to play this card game or whatever. And so there are upsides too. But this feeling that this listener is having about, it's just too much like I had to take a break. I think that's worth paying attention to. What I wonder about is if they have talked to their friends about this role that they fill, and about their feelings of burnout. Because in my experience, friends are often very grateful for the initiator, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't otherwise want to hang out with this person if they're not reaching out to set it up directly. A lot of people are not socialized to do this. A lot of people don't have a calendar brain. I mean, it sounds like this person has a calendar brain, which I also have, and sometimes it's easier for us to be the ones. So anyway, I would encourage them to initiate a conversation with some of those friends who they haven't seen. And say, I ran this little experiment, I noticed that I was the one scheduling us. I had to take a break, because it was stressing me out. I haven't seen you. How do you feel about that? Um, that would be my first little piece of advice, because my guess would be that this person has been in their own process of evaluation without talking to their community and without examining this role that they play within their community with friends.

Myisha: You're right. Yeah, I love that advice. And I love naming the role. Because in friendships, we all kind of fall together, you know, and things happen and maybe those relationships start very early in life, where it doesn't feel like you're initiating anything because you're all kind of in a common place, or you find yourself kind of meeting out and about, and it just feels a lot more organic. But as we get older, I think that role of initiator gets more heightened, you know, there's more responsibility there. So I'm not surprised that this person is experiencing burnout, I've definitely been on this end of the spectrum of things to where it's just like, oh, I have been the one making sure that we're all seeing each other. I think the one thing that I would maybe throw in there as a point of observation, or just a question is, are the friends also like somehow getting together without inviting you? Because that's also been my experience, where it's like, I'm initiating seeing certain people and when I stopped doing that, things are still happening for them, right. And they're still hangouts happening. I'm just not invited. That's a different situation entirely. And I think that calls for a different conversation.

Ann: For sure and that sounds so hurtful. It sounds, nobody wants to be left out. And I think that's a lot of the fear that underlies being the one to make plans, you know, you are taking a vulnerable position by being the one to reach out and say, do you want to see me at this date, at this time? And that feeling of like, oh, right, could everyone else be hanging out without me now that I'm not inserting myself, doesn't feel good either. And I think that if these friendships are worth navigating, your friends will, at the very least, meet you in the conversation about this initiator role that you've been playing.

Myisha: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's a hard one to have. And I think, you know, in big friendship, you and Amina discuss how difficult some of these, you know, friendship conversations can be and why. We're just not really taught to, like, communicate emotionally with friends, at least that's been my experience. So when something big happens, it can feel a little bit like fight or flight, like, you know, is the relationship over because it's not perfect anymore, or it's not meeting this ideal. But sometimes a conversation can shift things in a direction that you want them to go.

Ann: Yeah. And it is always like the last thing that I feel like doing in a friendship, you know, directly addressing, but what's great about friendship is sometimes is that these things just work without us talking about them, like we just sort of intuit or we just like are on the same emotional wavelength as our friends. And when we feel that shift, it does feel like breaking the magic to talk about it directly. And I know that's a parallel of something that happens in like romantic and sexual dynamics as well. But often those relationships have a more explicit agreement. That fight or flight feeling that you mentioned, exists because there is not a piece of paper saying, I've pledged to be your friend no matter what.

Myisha: There should be.

Ann: Maybe there should be. Not that I want to get the state more involved in my personal business at this juncture in 2024. But you know, it is riskier for a reason, like, we haven't all committed in friendship to working through difficulty. And so the only thing I would say is that if you do want to work through it, like for this person, if you're missing your friends, if you're feeling sad when you look at your calendar, and are like my friends aren't there, my friends aren't in my life. It's worth having the conversation.

Myisha: Absolutely. Well, I think to this question asker you've got maybe a conversation or many, you know, depending on how many friends you want to address this with, ahead of you. But we are wishing you luck and we would love to hear a follow up to hear how those conversations went and how you're feeling about your role as initiator. And let's move on to our next question. It's from a listener with a long distance bestie which you are very familiar with.

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Question 2: I’m 35 years old, single and I have no kids. My friend is the same age, engaged and pregnant. Lately I feel like our long-distance friendship is slowly dissolving. She’s brought up to me many times that she feels uncomfortable talking about her pregnancy with people, but most of her biggest life updates at the moment are related to the pregnancy. She has also mentioned feeling isolated because she is pregnant, so given her expressed need to not talk about it I have really held back on asking questions about what I feel like is a major life event for her and instead I’m just sharing sympathetic ohs, yikes and wows on the other end of the phone. I think it’s a big reason why our connection and calls have dipped. She was planning to visit me this summer, but now she’s backing out because she’s physically too tired. I’m really disappointed, but feel like I can’t express my disappointment about it. And I visited her this past December and she just finished a two week rafting trip to Alaska, so it also feels especially shitty that she could do that extreme trip and not this one long-weekend. What can I do to rebuild the connection to my friend? Do you think it's fair to bring up my disappointment that she’s no longer coming to visit me?

Myisha: I think it's fair to bring up the disappointment because it's how you feel and your friendship has changed, you know, in a really fundamental way that you're feeling and it's okay. I mean, I have never been pregnant, I do not have kids. But that process of my friends having children, was something that impacted me. And of course, we don't want to make everything about us. But sometimes when my friends would tell me they were pregnant, I would just start crying. Because I had like, all these other friendship traumas of, you know, the ways in which relationships change as a result of someone starting a family. So I think it's fair, I mean, I'd straight up did I was like, I did express to a really close friend, that I, you know, was just like, worried that things were going to change. And in that moment, I got so much reassurance that I was like, yeah, you're right. It's like, we have a bond, a special bond, and I don't think much is going to change. And in fact, not that much change. You, question asker, in this situation, where your friend is, literally like now in the like process of pregnancy, and that is so specific to every single person, and really, really hard to predict, like how you're going to feel. So I think also acknowledging that when you talk about your disappointment. That's gonna go a long way. in my opinion, like, yes, I know, you probably had enough energy for this rafting trip and I know, that's something you really love. But I am disappointed that like we couldn't get together to see each other one last time before the baby comes and I understand that, like, you're not in a point in your pregnancy where that's possible, but it still impacts me. As for the communication, I think that's also a conversation that the two of you should have about like, you know, what are the expectations, because it does sound like you're, you're getting a bit of a mixed message from your friend, about not wanting to talk about it, but also talking about it. So you might want to ask for a little bit of guidance from them. What do you think, Ann?

Ann: I've been thinking, as I listen to this question about the way that close friendships often function as a mirror for us. And I think when we're going through a big life change, sometimes it's hard to look in the mirror, or like, maybe look at an older version of yourself who befriended that person, and to reconcile what's happening now with what we see or what we want to see or what we used to see. And that is not so much a piece of advice, as it is, I think, a commentary on how maybe both of you are feeling. Anytime one friend's life changes in a big tectonic way, and that can be, yes, like pregnancy, or maybe a big life, like moving to a new city for a job or, I don't know, having a new gender identity or I mean, I can come up with you know, a dozen of these things that are,

Myisha: Opening their marriage,

Ann: Fully yeah.

Myisha: Like divorce, yeah.

Ann: All of these things. Anything that really feels like it's an identity rocking choice that you make, as an individual will affect your friendships. This question about fairness at the end is also really interesting to me, it's like I want to gently encourage you not to have a lens of what's fair or not. I think that maybe a little bit of tenderness and acceptance for the fact that your friend is going through something big, and you are also going through something big. And like you say, Myisha, it's not the same thing as, oh, I'm pregnant too, or whatever.

Myisha: Yeah, not about you.

Ann: Not about you, but also about you, you know. And I think that being able to say, listen, I've noticed that we are not in communication the same way we used to be, I miss you, might do some of that work. So as you say, some of the advice is just communicate a little more. I mean, I also think about the times when I've been in periods of rapid identity remaking. And yeah, it does feel easier to go on a week long rafting trip than have an emotional conversation about that sometimes. Like I hear why that choice was probably hurtful. And I also think like, that's another indicator that your friend is really going through something. I wonder about the duration of this friendship too, because one thing we write about in the book is all the ways that friendship prompts you to stretch, grow toward the other person, finding empathy in a really intimate way with an experience that you might not have had yourself. And for a friendship that has never been stretched in this way before, the first one feels like oof. Like imagine anytime you've gotten back into an exercise routine after a long time not moving your body, it's like, you're like, oh, what? You don't even know,

Myisha: I have these muscles?

Ann: Yeah, exactly. And so that's just another question I have for this person of, hey, is this the first time you've experienced something like this? Because that could be a way to sort of connect as well and get beyond the fairness question and just think about, like, oh, we are in uncharted territory for this friendship, how do I want it to go? And what you said about actively voicing your concerns to your friend that like, hey, this is changing, or might change our friendship, gives your friend an opportunity to place the focus on your friendship. Like maybe not on their own identity or body or things that they could be struggling with and kind of say, like, oh, this person still wants to be here with me, even though I feel like a hot mess right now or I feel like I don't want to deal. And so a little bit of stretching, is what I recommend. And I would also say that if you maintain this friendship into the future, this was going to happen at some point. Like, you know, it's happening right now related to this specific instance but no one gets out of a long term friendship without a moment like this, where you're like, oh no, something's changed. Does our friendship still work? Like that is a question that every big friendship has to tackle. And so I think one thing you can tell yourself aside from, is it fair or not, is just okay, how do I want to do this for this time? And for the next time?

Myisha: Yeah. Yeah, man, I mean, I'm just thinking of all the times that an 'I miss you' has really gone a long way, in a friendship, no matter what's been happening. Either me saying it and expressing that or having that expressed to me and kind of taking that moment of pause to go, yeah, oh, like, shit has really changed, like we are different. And that doesn't necessarily mean bad, different. But obviously, something is not working the way that it did before. We're not connecting in the way that we did before. And how might we want to do that moving forward, given today's constraints? Yeah, you know, so yeah, yeah, the fairness. Oh, it's so hard.

Ann: And also, your point, your point about all the work that an 'I miss you' can do. I also think about this person's observation that their friend said, I don't want to talk about the pregnancy, but then seems to be kind of texting about the pregnancy. And, again, back to what I first said about friendship being a mirror, maybe as a friend, they could say, hey, I see you wanting to talk about this, and it's okay to talk about it with me and you don't have to talk about it a certain way, or just be excited about it. You can just, I'm here for whatever, you know, whatever you're feeling about this experience, it could be an invitation as well. So I miss you is its own type of invitation. But it could even be more specific related to this situation.

Myisha: I love that. Yes. Okay. So, again, recommendation for hard conversation.

Ann: I know.

Myisha: I think we're gonna have that a lot.

Ann: The running joke was that, like, our follow up to "Big Friendship" could be like a workbook where every page is just like talking about it. Have you talked about it? Have you talked about it? Could you talk about it directly?

Myisha: Well conversation starters are so helpful so I actually encourage this workbook because people need phrases or you know, just as we've been kind of like offering words you can say, because yeah, even you know, in my work as a sex coach, people are like, how do I say this to a person? Like, how do I get it from inside, outside? You and I are words people, and so we can turn a phrase or think about how this might be delivered with a specific tone, with a specific intention. But I think a lot of people struggle when there's that emotional layer to it, that makes it that much harder to communicate. So yeah, I mean, I think we've offered a few phrases for this question asker but I also think it'd be cool to have just like a little bit of a cheat sheet workbook for people to have, just a plug for your, you know, publisher.

Ann: Who knows. 2030, 2035? We'll see when we get around to it.

Myisha: Yeah for sure. Okay, well, we're gonna take a quick break. And when we come back Ann and I are going to answer more of your friendship questions, speed round style. Don't go anywhere.

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Myisha: And we're back. Ann we have a few more questions, but I want to try to answer them speed round style. Are you ready?

Ann: I'm ready.

Myisha: Okay, I'm gonna read the next question and then we can take turns. A friend thinks I betrayed them, but I did not. I feel awful and our friendship is not the same. I feel like if there's no trust then what's the point? I agree that if there's no trust, what's the point? And I feel like, there's something else going on there, if there's this big of a miscommunication about something as serious as betrayal, right? If your friend feels betrayed by you, I'm really, really curious about A, what the betrayal was, B, like how you feel like you did not commit this offense and C, like where your communication is, was this just something that was lobbed at you as an accusation and you had no opportunity to defend yourself or explain or, you know, counter their perception of what happened? Or is there real hurt that's been committed here that you're not looking at and not acknowledging? So there's a lot here, what do you think?

Ann: This is one situation where a direct one-on-one conversation is not my advice. Something that came up as we answered questions related to friendship, as Amina and I talked about our own experience, which is, for those who haven't read the book, we had a major friendship breakdown, we went to therapy together, we really like spent time and money fixing it. I don't know if either of us would have used the word betrayal, but it was a level of hurt that feels on par with this question. And as we all know, in this country, therapy is not 100% free and accessible to everyone as it should be. And one thing that came up, sort of in our book conversations was getting a third party to help you mediate, have this conversation. And so, I don't know if this person is still kind of in a bigger friend community with a friend who feels betrayed. But it might be useful to say, okay, can we bring in a person we both trust, a third person we both trust, to help us have this conversation directly? And in a way, I agree, if there's no, if there's no trust, then it's not going to be an intimate friendship, it's going to be an acquaintanceship. But I also think that repair takes work when trust has been broken. And I think this is a good time to call on your community as a resource.

Myisha: Yes, phone a friend.

Ann: Phone a third friend!

Myisha: Yeah. Bring another friend. And I love that. And if you both are maybe open and willing to do more extensive work, you may consider therapy as well.

Ann: Yeah. Okay, you want another question?

Myisha: Yeah.

Ann: Okay. I am my sister's best friend. We are 14 years apart and I live in a different state. How do I encourage her to find friends her own age, in the same stage of life?

Myisha: That's a great question. I've actually had this, I don't have a sister. But I've had this experience because I've moved around and I've had best friends move around and we talk extensively about making friends and how difficult it is and how we're each trying to do that. So I guess maybe my suggestion would be talking to your sister about ways that you've found community. And if you are so similar, and so BFF-y, they might find inspiration in some of the ways that you have built a community for yourself, and take a cue, take a page from your book and start applying those tactics in the town where they live.

Ann: I love the word BFF-y.

Myisha: If you're so BFF-y with each other.

Ann: You know, the other thing that I heard in this question is how do I be a good like friend mentor? Like how do I model for my friend slash sister, this really important life skill, which is making and building friendships. And I love your advice about being more transparent about how you found friends. I would also suggest maybe, this is maybe a little corny, but like, a little like, kind of get out there and make friends challenge. Where you're like, okay, I'm gonna go join this thing or like, go to a friend's party where I don't know anyone but the person hosting it, you do the same thing and then we'll report back. Almost like a kind of, like, we'll both be going through the hard thing at the same time model or something like that. It's always easier to do something when you feel like you're with someone, like the hard thing feels easier. I mean, this is scientifically proven. Actually, we cite a study in the book about people on a really long hik and if they were like with a friend, it literally felt easier. You know, there's like, there's science about this. And so, you know, it's hard to make friends. It's hard to be young. It's hard to make friends when you're young. I think being a kind of long distance, parallel buddy for your BFF-y sister would be great.

Myisha: Yeah, take on the challenge of being a little bit of an inspiration and take on the team challenge of, you know, both getting out there a bit more and stretching your wings and building community, even further in your cities.

Ann: I also just want to say that, I hear the concern that's in this question about having friends your own age, but I think we should be equally concerned about people who don't have any friends that are a decade or more apart from them. I think that intergenerational friendship and friendship with people who are going through different life experiences is so incredible, and one of the most wonderful enriching things about, like getting to be like promiscuous in friendship and not locked into like, only one. You know, I think that this relationship that you have with your sister is going to serve her and you for a really long time. It's just, you know, yeah, she might need a few other little inputs of friends who are going through things that she's experiencing. It's the inverse of a problem that I feel like I have as I age, I'm just like, I need to go younger and older. 2025: a friend in every decade. But yeah, intergenerational, a real boon.

Myisha: This is a perfect segue to the next question. Oh man, my friendship struggle is that in my 40s, none of my friends have energy to do anything. They just want to sit around and watch TV or play video games. There's a time and place for all that, but damn, I feel like I need to somehow find a whole new friend group of friends younger than 40 to hang out with. Should I give up on my old friends? So your advice earlier was to have intergenerational friendships. I don't think we want to give up our current friendships, just because they're not necessarily meeting all of the needs that we have. It doesn't sound like they're totally averse to sitting around playing video games sometimes but they want a little variety. They want a little young spice. I think that that's a good idea, to expand and to try to connect with people based on your other interests.

Ann: I also think asking the question of what did you used to get from these friendships? Presumably, there was an era when these friends didn't just want to sit around and watch TV. What did that era feel like? What role did these friends play in your life then? And did you have like, a regular shared activity? Did you have like, you know, a similar life experience? Like I mean, I sort of assume, perhaps incorrectly, that these are friendships, like maybe everyone worked together, or maybe everyone was in college together, like, you know, the idea of being bound by some kind of external constraint, maybe that's not there anymore. If all you had going for you was the circumstance, maybe you actually don't need to hang on to these friendships, you know. But if you really miss an emotional connection or if you miss something more substantive, once again, have a conversation about it. Sorry for the broken record advice. The other little piece of advice I want to offer, that has been so key for me, as, I'm 42 so I'm right aligned with this question asker, in the lifespan, I think that's been really key for me in staying in touch with my friends is recurring events on the calendar. This is also a hack for our initiator from the first segment, which is to say, I have the same small group of friends come over to my house once a month, first Thursdays and play cards. Like it's just a recurring calendar thing where I don't need to plan anything, except to cancel it if I'm going to be out of town. And friends know that there's always another month where they can turn up. It doesn't require any planning, you know, something like that. It seems like part of what's going on is TV and video games are easy. And so anyway, you can like de risk or like, like lower the stakes for hanging out, I think is going to serve you if you decide that you want to stay connected with these friends. And maybe you have to become more of an initiator like this is a real, we're going to tie it all back with a bow. Maybe you have to tap that initiator impulse if you want more for your friendships. I suspect that you know if your friends are still good friend material for you, they're gonna be receptive.

Myisha: Yes, I also like the initiator hack of like, you come to me. Listen, I'm making the plan, but I'm making it easy for me. I don't have to leave.

Ann: That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

Myisha: I love that. I have a question. Do you believe in like periodic friend reviews? I say that and as I'm saying it sounds like a yearly employee evaluation. But what I mean is like, a kind of check in, like taking the temperature of your current friendships and just kind of seeing, like, how do I feel about everybody? Are we good? Like, and maybe that's an informal process that happens just for you. But you know, is that something that you've thought of or you've implemented?

Ann: Not in my stereotypical recurring calendar way.

Myisha: Okay. Okay, alright.

Ann: I think for me that's something that has happened when I've been in moments of big change, or like, low level crisis, when I'm feeling really emotionally stressed. Sometimes what I do, is I like open my messages app, and I'm just like scrolling through to be like, who's the person? Who's the person? You know, that feeling of like, I really need a connection right now. And, you know, there have been times when I've been like, oh, the person I need isn't anywhere near my first page of contacts, like, you know, maybe it's someone I haven't spoken to in a few months. And then that's a sign that I need to give a little love to that relationship, or like, maybe take that as an, you know, the impetus to reach out and connect. And then on the on the flip side, like, oh, I don't have any friends who can help me or can meet me with this specific thing I'm going through right now, that's maybe a sign also to say like, okay, I need to ask for a little more from someone who is in that page one of text messages. I don't know why page one of texts, just like is an easy shorthand for this for me, but ask for a little more, or deepen a friendship with someone who I might have written off as an acquaintance or just like a friend of a friend. Some of my most lovely like, kind of middle aged, blossoming friendships have come from realizing there's a person who I always bump into when we're like, out and about in a big group setting. And I'm like, hmm, I always feel good when I talk to them. I always have so much to say to them. Seems like they're going through this similar thing, based on what I've observed, and then actively making that connection. And this is one of the many things that's cool about aging, is you've just had more opportunities to like, bump into people in that way. So anyway, long winded answer to say, I identify the need for review and my friendships based on not having my own needs met in friendship, like a moment of struggle that I'm going through.

Myisha: Yeah, it's situational. Currently, I'm in need of more friends who are available for impromptu cocktail happy hours. Specifically, anybody who loves to drink like Manhattans or Martinis.

Ann: You need, you need a served up friend group.

Myisha: But not to the point of like, how we used to drink.

Ann: No, like one really good cocktail

Myisha: Just like yeah.

Ann: That is a middle-aged value as well.

Myisha: At a cool bar. Yeah, yeah.

Ann: Do you need like a Monday night, one really good cocktail club?

Myisha: Yeah. Yes, I do.

Ann: And have your friends all bring someone who can do that. I mean, that doesn't address your spontaneous thing. But I'm just, I'm working too hard to pull all the advice into one.

Myisha: No, I love it. I love it, I need all the hacks I can get. Thank you so much, Ann. We're going to move into our last segment where I have three questions lined up for you. They're all related to friendship, and you get to pick one and answer it. How's that feel?

Ann: Feels great.

Myisha: Okay, here are your choices. A. Who was your first best friend? And are you still friends today? B. What's one piece of advice you give to friends who are in bad relationships?

Ann: Like bad romantic relations.

Myisha: Yeah.

Ann: Okay,

Myisha: And C. What's the best thing a friend has ever done for you?

Ann: Oh, my God. Well, I'm gonna go with B, which is the advice. I'm just in advice mode now.

Myisha: Okay. I love it.

Ann: Advice for a friend who's in a bad romantic relationship. This question is so full of itself I love it, because it means that I've determined the relationship is bad. This is such a real —

Myisha: Maybe they keep coming to you and talking about how badly they feel in it. So they really confided in you, it's been established.

Ann: Totally. I think that my two tactics are one, more questions, more questions, more questions. How does this person make you feel? How do you want your partner to react when this sort of thing happens? Like, you know, a little bit of just, not an ulterior motive of getting them to say, oh, right my partner was really not great at that, but more also about, for you as their friend, understanding like, why they might still be in that relationship. Like maybe they, maybe they're actually getting what they need, or maybe you're just gaining more info for the next relationship that they're in or to set them up with someone else, who knows. So questions, questions, questions, specifically about how this romantic prospect's partner's actions are making your friend feel. Second is, I've noticed, and this is like, being a friend as a mirror. So like, and this is to your question about, like, let's say the friends always complaining about them, or something like that. Say something to the effect of like, I've noticed that when we do that thing that good friends do, which is complain for the first 30 minutes they're hanging out together, which I love and cherish as a ritual. Sometimes it's explicit in my friendships, we get together for a coffee, and it's like, alright, I'm going to complain for 30 minutes unbroken. Now you go. I've noticed that all your complaints are about this person who you're dating, and I just want to reflect that back to you. I just like want to let you know that I hear you say that a lot. Sometimes we don't know what we're saying repeatedly until a friend is like, guess what? Heard it before babe. And so yeah, so question question question, especially about feelings. And then I've noticed, I don't think there is much that you can do beyond that. Except that, maybe when things get really bad, there's a point where you have to say, I feel like I'm party to you harming yourself by continuing to stay in this relationship and I have to pull back or like, I have to let you know. And that's really hard. It's really hard to see someone you love and who you think of as just like, the very best, because that is how we think about our close friends, right? Like who would be so lucky, like who could be so lucky as to touch the hem of her garment? Right? And then to see that friend was someone who we think is like, not treating them? Well, it's just, it's devastating. So questions that may or may not be leading, and I've noticed.

Myisha: Very, very coachy advice, actually, I would say.

Ann: Is it?

Myisha: Yeah, like, you know, open ended, how does it make you feel? Those are a coach's bread and butter. [Laughter] Okay, well, thank you so much for being here Ann. This was great. I mean, friendships are so important. And they support us through all of our romantic relationships, as we've just said. The good, the bad, the ugly, but they also have their own challenges, as we've heard from many, many question askers. And by the way, I think we've gotten so many more friendship questions, so we might have to have you back for a part two.

Ann: Oh, always. I just want to say it again, close friendship is an intimate relationship. And you don't, you don't get an intimate relationship without big emotional, like issues to work through.

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Myisha: All right, Ann before you go, please let people know where they can find you. And yeah, tell them what you do and do so well.

Ann: All of my work, "Big Friendship," my previous book, info about this adulthood book that I'm working on, my weekly newsletter, which I've been sending since 2013, long before substack was a twinkle in any tech bros eye is at ann friedman dot com.

Myisha: Go to the website.

Ann: Go to the website, babes!

Myisha: I have to say, I'm a paid subscriber to the Ann Friedman weekly and Anne does an amazing thing. If you don't know about it I want to plug it which is she has a pie chart of a moment. That's all I want to say. I just want to say you do a pie chart of a moment every single week and it's a joy to have access to and feel like you're getting a little something extra that other subscribers aren't getting when you're a paid subscriber.

Ann: We love a perk!

Myisha: Yes! Perks are very fun. All right, thanks, Ann, this was great. I'm so happy that we got to do this today.

Ann: Thank you for having me! What a pleasure.

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Myisha: And thank you for listening. Next time on ‘How's Your Sex Life?’ I'll be talking to Tracy Clark-Flory, author of Want Me: A Sex Writer’s Journey Into the Heart of Desire.

Tracy Clark-Flory: You know I write so much in my book about how women are socialized to want to be wanted and they’re focused on other’s desires and it sounds like she’s on this journey. She’s realized how that’s impacted her life and now she’s saying screw that, I don’t want to do that anymore.

Myisha: If you want advice about sex or dating, remember to drop us an email or voice memo at sex life at KCRW dot org. We’ll keep you anonymous.

CREDITS

Myisha: ‘How's Your Sex Life?’ is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was recorded by Sue Margulies and mixed by Hope Brush. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Myriam-Fernanda Alcala, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro. And a big shout out to our voice actors. We'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.

VO 1: This is Lizzy Schliessmann. Thanks so much for listening.

VO 2: This is Adria Kloke. See you next time for another episode of KCRW’s ‘How’s Your Sex Life?’.